Timing, Please don't say stuff you don't know trash about. i live in the middle east. If you fail Koran, you're allowed to take it over and over and over again. In fact, you can even take it in English, or at a very simple level. There's no forcing. I took the hard version for 10 years, yes 10 WHOLE years. Hated every minute of memorizing, because I hate memorizing. But I learned a lot. I'm a muslim, and I'm glad they did it. FYI, Koran doesn't count for anything when applying to University here, unless Islam is your major. CNN is biased enough as it is. American people need to see the bigger picture. No one feels sorry for Palestine. They just want it to end, Justice or not. NO ONE CARES ABOUT ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES. You think Israelis have it just as bad as Arabs, well you're wrong. At the very VERY least, palestinians aren't ordered to rape the enemy. They stand for something.
Cohen, I did not feel that I was putting words in your mouth. sorry you felt that way. It was not my intention to put words in your mouth, With the web things like that happen. I should have been more careful. You may be right with blanket statements, though I believe you make them, too. For instance I I think it is naive to think that Israel/Palestinian issue had nothing to do with 9/11. The reason why I put a question mark when I associated you with Sharon was that I seem to have remembered, which you have set me straight on, that you might not support Sharon. I put the ? mark to show that I was not clear if you supported Sharon; I did not intend to assert that I was sure you did. I SHOULD HAVE DONE THE PAST RESEARCH OR MADE IT CLEARER I WASN'T CERTAIN OF YOUR POSITION. You and I are very close in our ultimate positions based on your post and your agreement with F.D. Khan's last post and your largely agreeing (I believe?) with the peace plan that boy linked to. To be more clear how would your response to the terrorist acts of this week in Jerusalem differ from that of the Sharon government? Do you agree that sharon's demand for an absolute 7 to 10 days? of no terrorist incidents give the most extreme elements of the Palestinians veto power over the peace process. Some of my friends who were upset when Sharon was elected still largely support this no negotiation till cessation of violence stand. I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but I feel it is a fair question since you don't support Sharon. You also have taken me to task for extrapolating from my own personal experience and generalizing on the diffculties of having this dialogue. One of the reasons why I ask is that it is easier on a personal level to talk about these issues over the web. I believe the threads on this topic also show the difficulty of talking about these issues.
If you "fail Koran"? Is that like failing Choir? You just said you had to memorize the Koran and you live in "moderate" Egypt. There are schools in the West Bank where all they do is have kids memorize the Koran and train as suicide bombers. There are schools in Pakistan that do the same thing. Are you seriously going to deny that schools in the Middle East don't brainwash their students with casual omitions of little trivial things like the Holocaust? What Middle East are you living in?
Yeah schools like that exist in Pakistan, but they are far into the minority. Also why the hell would Middle East countries ommit Holocaust? I am no expert, but Muslims did not really have anything to do with it, so why hide it? It was that little guy Hitler remember?
Some of the arguments made in this thread are simply ridiculous. A few are on the money. I will only offer a few observations and facts in the hope that the situation is clarified a bit: 1) First and foremost, Israel is not going anywhere. They will use their nuclear weapons if seriously threatened, so 'boy' and any others who want to see Israel destroyed had better think twice about supporting anything that might conceivably lead to a ME without Israel. 2) Suicide bombings will get more Palestinians than Israelis killed. Sharon is proving me right on this as I write this. A suicide bomber might believe that he's working to create a Palestinian state, or destroy Israel, or whatever he's been told - but the reality is that when a suicide bomber kills 10 Jews a hundred Palestinian "freedom fighters" are killed in return. The suicide bombers will never acheive their goal - creation of a Palestinian state. Or destruction of Israel. 3) The Israelis are about to take care of the Hamas problem. If the Palestinians just can't stop sending suicide bombers, then the Israelis just can't stop 'attaking them with Appaches' as 'boy' would put it. The Israelis have lost all patience, and the US is no longer restraining them. Notice we haven't condemned their recent attacks on the Palestinians? We usually do... 4) The Israeli settlements must be stopped and eliminated. They are brought about by acts of land-theft, and the settlers tend to be Orthodox extremists who are prone to violence. The settlements must stop. 5) The Israelis (most of them anyway) have wanted peace for about a decade. They are tired of war. Arafat, on the other hand, turned down the Barak deal. Now you can b**** about water rights, the Jerusalem question, and such, but the reality is that that was the best deal they could have hoped to get at the time. They should have taken it. Instead, they turn it down over a the issue of release of prisoners. Sharon was elected because Arafat turned down Barak's historic offer. That is fact. Had Arafat accepted that deal, Sharon would be a senile old war criminal sitting at his ranch b****ing about how Arafat is an insencere ****, rather than being the man in control of the IDF. When Arafat turned down the Barak deal, he effectively got Barak thrown from power, and Sharon was elected. Why? Because the Israelis realized that Arafat and the Palestinians didn't really want peace. So they elected Sharon, and they elected war. Arafat most likely did not want this war, but he's stuck with it now. This is what happens when you sponsor terrorism against militarily powerful states. They hit back. Now he has no helicopters... My personal opinion - all analysis aside - is that there is no hope for peaceful resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict. In order for a peace-outbreak to occur, both sides would have to want it. At this point, neither side does, so the outcome is war. And the Palestinians will lose, and lose big. They should have taken the Barak deal. Short of that, they shouldn't have kept sending suicide bombers to kill Israeli kids. That was a mistake, and they will soon feel the consequences.
Originally posted by glynch Cohen, I did not feel that I was putting words in your mouth. sorry you felt that way. ... Thank you. On to the topics at hand..except I must comment on: For instance I I think it is naive to think that Israel/Palestinian issue had nothing to do with 9/11. And I think that you are being manipulated by bin laden's PR. It is well documented that bin laden only RECENTLY jumped on the Palestinian bandwagon (in the last 2 or 3 years, if I recall correctly), much to the dismay of PLO leaders. He has had MANY years to do so, but only did it to gain more public support. He declared 'war' on the US long before he made public comments about the Plaestinians. His main issue was with the western ways of life and how us infidels 'defiled' the holy land. ...To be more clear how would your response to the terrorist acts of this week in Jerusalem differ from that of the Sharon government? Do you agree that sharon's demand for an absolute 7 to 10 days? of no terrorist incidents give the most extreme elements of the Palestinians veto power over the peace process. Some of my friends who were upset when Sharon was elected still largely support this no negotiation till cessation of violence stand. I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but I feel it is a fair question since you don't support Sharon. You also have taken me to task for extrapolating from my own personal experience and generalizing on the diffculties of having this dialogue. One of the reasons why I ask is that it is easier on a personal level to talk about these issues over the web. I believe the threads on this topic also show the difficulty of talking about these issues. I don't feel on the spot at all. I am not 'ultra-'sensitive' about this issue. I feel bad for the people involved and hope they can work towards a resolution. Sharon's policy of 7 days is either based on an honest belief that Arafat can control all terrorists, can ultimately control all terrorists (i.e. with some work), or cannot control terrorists at all and it is just a ploy by Sharon to delay peace talks. Are some terrorist cells reporting to Arafat? I don't know, but it is unlikely that they ALL do 100% of the time. This, in effect, DOES give terrorists a veto which is exactly what they want. This assures continued bombings, doesn't it? Just as it is unrealistic for the Palestinians to ever think that Israel will go away and things will be like they were in the early 1800's, it is unrealistic of the Israelis to think that Palestinian leaders can control ALL terrorists. The demand that should be made is that the PLO makes every effort to reduce the violence, and that means holding people in jail and destroying the terrorist networks. They certainly have the power to make some gains there. Then Israel should respond with pullbacks, opening checkpoints, etc. If the PLO makes concrete gains against terrorist cells, they should be promptly and heavily rewarded especially at the negotiating table. One other point, I don't understand why it was a big thing when Powell mentioned support of a Palestinian State. Shouldn't that be a given?
It'd be like trying to explain why there is an America in the first place. You can't just go around exterminating large groups of people because you think you should live where they have for thousands of years. Also, I still don't quite understand the Palestinians were there first argument? The Jewish civilization is one of the oldest in the world. Don't most Palestinians trace their ancestry, if they could, back to a Jewish heritage???
Jay -- you're right...both would trace back all the way to Abraham... Abraham's son with his maid-servant, Hagar, was named Ishmael. From him came the Arab nation, as the story goes. Abraham's son with his wife, Sara, was Issac..the father of Jacob and in the line of King David and ultimately Christ. The argument over the birthright of Ishmael and Issac is one still argued today.
Jay-Z, I feel you are absolutely correct, but there is a flip side to the coin. Palestinians are TODAY, at this moment, being driven out of their homes by bulldozers and troops to make more settlements for Jews coming from all over the world. Every day some families are losing their homes, their land, everything they have. Then they try to get a job. In Israel, Palestinians are a second class group, not being able to apply for most jobs and not recieving any kind of benefits or rights. They are not allowed to be in most parts of the country and must constantly have paperwork or they will be arrested on the spot. The Intifadah (sp?) or Uprising is more a recent course of events if we look at the broader scale of the history of this conflict. The Palestinians waited and waited and waited for the UN, the other Arab nations and the rest of the world to see their plight, yet the help never came and they were left to be thrown out of their homes and live in a police state similar to how the Jews lived in Germany pre WWII and how the black population lived in South Africa not too long ago. In terms of the bombing of the Palestinian areas seen as a retaliation, the war of retaliation has been going on for ages and there is always something to avenge.
Is this the flip side to : -settlements in arab allocated areas in Israel are being constructed at a faster rate than Jewish settlements. -Most countries have no responsibility to supply jobs to non-citizens. -"concentration camps" created outside of Israel for the palistinians were constructed by their Arab "hosts" so they would not be assimilated into their own countries.
No you're not. And before you point out the Taliban the United States didn't put them in power. The United States also didn't put into power any of those countries that are pulling the stunts they are pulling. Instead of blaming the United States for everything how about telling those countries to stop killing each other for no reason. Why is that naive? It's common knowledge that Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda had something to do with this. They practically admitted it and said they would do it again if the United State didn't leave their land. Now why would Al Qaeda want anything to do with the Palestinian and why would they want ANYTHING to do with an anti-terrorist country like Israel? Are you trying to say that bin Laden had nothing to do with the attacks on Sept. 11th? I know you're not saying he worked with Israel because that isn't likely to happen anytime soon.
Actually from what I have read, Arab countries were extremely supportive of Hitler and the Mufti of Jerusalem at the time actually consulted Hitler on what to do with the Jews. I've also read accounts about college students and professionals who studied in the Middle East who had no knowledge of the Holocaust and others who are taught to believe it's simply a ploy by Jews to get sympathy from the world. Some very disturbing stuff. Have you studied in schools in the Middle East? Just curious if you have personal experience of what is taught there. I obviously do not.
If that is the case then it is disturbing. I am not from the Middle East so I have no idea what goes on over there. I still find it hard to believe that the majority of the schools would do that sort of thing. In India (the second largest Muslim nation in the world) we were taught about the Holocaust. Also, the Middle East does not represent the entire Muslim world. There are many, many, many,many Muslims in India, Indonesia, China, Russia, Australia, North America and other European countries. Just thought that I would point this out again.
So you would be okay if the government came to your house tommorrow and kicked you out from your very ****ing house?!?!?! I mean they are giving you some choice crap piece of land!!! Why the hell do the Muslims have to move from their very own houses so Jewish people can settle into em?
Why does anyone get kicked out of their beloved houses? They can't pay for it. I am not disagreeing that Israel is using economic strategies in this war.
Mr. Gootan, I think you are making it sound a lot more humane than it is. Its not a scenario in which they are raising taxes ala Houston downtown so people sell their land and houses, they are simply bulldozing Palestinian neighborhoods and building Israeli settlements. In in regards to getting a Job: A society that only allows members of a religion to be citizens and recieve benefits and jobs would be known in any other sense as a oppressive apartheid regime instead of a "zionist" movement. As much as I feel for the oppression the Jews have faced, how is having a pure Zionist state different than Hitler's vision of a Pure Aryan Germany? Each scenario incorporates discriminating of others and oppression of those parties. Imagine that you are sitting home one day in Palestine (probably because you can't get a job because you are muslim) and Israeli tanks and bulldozers begin to tear down your house and your neighborhood. Then they say, ok go to this land over here, and then they point you at the worst most unfertile land and do not compensate you for destroying your home. Then as you are in the streets, you can be arrested for anything and tortured by the Israeli Mossad or the IDF and have no rights to any legal and/or political party to talk to. Relatives of yours that speak their mind disappear only to never be heard from again. You are in a regime that sees you as trash and constantly are referred to by the leaders of this country as "animals" and "rats" The people that are the closest to you in the New Settlements are the Orthodox jews which are many of the most extremist jews that have done many, many "terrorist" attacks on Palestinians because most are very well armed. Now there are wrongdoings on both sides, but I feel taking the situation from a Palestinian perspective, i'm surprised there are not more attacks from this treatment which has turned many Palestinians insane and extremist. You want to know what breeds extremism in any religion? - Economic and Social depravity When a man's life is so awful, he cannot simply have a home, a family and a normal life, you tend to try to seek answers and many extremist leaders take advantage of that frustration and hurt to push these people into ideas which are not "sane" The treatment of Palestinians by Israeli's over the last 50 years bred much of this extremism, and adding to the violence will not stop the problem, but it will simply compound it. The solution is to truly divide the areas in a reasonable sense. The Barak offer was horrendous and would never have created a lastin peace, seeing how the Palestinians would be living in a slave puppet state of Israel. The Palestinians need to stop the extremist portions of their people to gain international support and not boil the blood of the Israelis even more. How all this can be done? I don't know if it ever can....
I am by no means an expert on Israeli & Palestinian relations so some feel free to correct me if I am wrong. The Muslims are getting kicked out of their houses, not because they are not paying for it. But because they are MUSLIMS! How would some of the caucasion members of this board feel like if they were kicked out from their houses for african americans?
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." —Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces (New York Times, 14 April 1983) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." —Golda Meir, March 8, 1969 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I am a black South African, and if I were to change the names, a description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank could describe events in South Africa." —Archbishop Desmond Tutu, during Christmas visit to Jerusalem, December 25, 1989 (Ha'aretz; cited in Palestine Perspectives, January/February 1990)
