[Sunday Times]Tibetan monks beaten as police halt dissent

The neighbors may not like it, and the FBI certainly would be interested if there were murals on a home of OBL. But the police would not come and beat him.

 

The person would have more trouble with the neighborhood association. (they'll think I'm kidding!)



D&D. Attempt to Keep it Civil!

Impeach Bush.

 

My HOA are the nazis. Every neighbor is a possible property value brownshirt.

Trust no one!

 

The HOA would have banned me from the next bar-b-q and not water my plants.

 

I disagree. The railroad connects Tibet, one of the most isolated regions in the world, to mainland China and it was built with the money of the mainland Chinese. I do not see how the railroad would bring financial burdens to the Tibetans.

The railroad transports both goods and people. It makes it easy and less expensive to bring goods to Tibet, which means the goods would be more affordable to the Tibetan people, thereby improving their standard of living.

Most of the passengers on the train are tourists, i.e. people like you. These people go to Tibet to experience Tibetan culture and contribute to the local economy. Most of the temples in Tibet charge entry fees and they can increase the charges because there are so many tourists.

I also do not believe that the Tibetans cannot afford to use the railway as I understand that the hard seat costs 389 yuan each, that's affordable to pretty much everyone in China.

I also disagree that Tibetans have little use for the railroad. Surely, you can see how the railroad provides them with more opportunities to see the world outside their own homes, and maybe learn to modernize themselves. Would you really want to live in the dark ages forever?

As I understand, all businesses operating in Tibet and the rest of China are required to pay tax. Since Tibet has not contributed to the tax revenue of the central government for a very long time, one can only speculate that the taxes it gained from locally operated businesses are being spent on local projects and developments.

On the other hand, if the Hans didn't start any sort of business in Tibet at all. I don't see how this would benefit the local Tibetans anyway. China benefited enormously from letting foreign businesses setting up shop in China, so I don't see how the Tibetans cannot benefit from opening up to the rest of China. At least the Tibetans can learn to do business with the rest of China, which would be good for its economy.

A fairly large percentages of the officials in Tibet are Tibetans themselves, and I'd say that most Hans working in Tibet have no government or party connections at all. I also don't believe the Hans hold all the cards, because there is no racially specific policies that hold back the Tibetans as far as I understand.

I know nothing about the gentrification of american inner cities. However, I'm sure you saw the roads, the schools, the hospitals, the power plants the running water and all the other foundations of a modern society in Tibet. Most, if not all, of these are built with money earned from the rest of China. The infrastructure is built in Tibet, and it will stay there with or without the Chinese. The Tibetans are the ultimate beneficiaries.

On the other hand, what would Tibet be like today, if the Hans hadn't spent any money in Tibet at all? Would it be a paradise or just a rather harsh place to live?

 

I'm just skimming this thread to try to catch up and there is no way I will get through the 19 pages of it so pardon me if this has long been answered but

that is about the most hypocritical statement I've seen on this bbs which is full of hypocritical statements.

You're saying that non-Chinese cannot criticize the PRC, well Chinese posters frequently criticize the US government, foreign policy and even culture without any problems. In fact Canadian, German and many other non-Americans frequently criticize the US. Somehow though only the Chinese can criticize the PRC because only they understand it but they are free to criticize the US because somehow they understand it as much as Americans?

 

For those who want spend some time reading, here is something for you, from an Australian guy in China:

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073&sid=02ccd64bdd029b5b1451daf5edb77a0b

 

I don't have much time to post these days, either, but I think you took what he said out of context. Clearly most non-Chinese posters have little clue about China when they were engaging in China-related discussions and debates, and those who know a thing or two often took agenda-filled stance and spewed nothing but distortions, biased BS, in addition to outright lies.

There are much bigger fish to fry in this thread. I'll try to catch most of them when I have a chance.

 

Heil Hitler.

 

LOL ... that would be your holiness Dalai Lama's daily ritual to his SS mentor Heinrich Harrer. You don't have to remind me, meowgi, I'll get to that later.

 

Oh, I can't wait to read your lastest installment of propaganda! What this thread has been lacking has been somebody willing to run the official CCP playbook to the letter, and to proclaim everybody else wrong and to have no right to even have an opinion in an officious bureaucratic fashion.

Better hurry because you are losing face by delaying. LOTS of face.

 

I've read through some more of this thread, although still not all 19 pages, and I don't think I took Yuantian's statement out of context at all. In fact several Chinese, or at least pro-PRC, posters continued to argue that non-Chinese had no right to criticize the PRC even as they continued to criticize the US drawing upon things as distant as the 1819 Sedition acts.

If non-Chinese have no right to criticize the PRC then certainly Chinese posters should refrain from criticizing the US yet that isn't the case and frequently Chinese posters on several topics have criticized the US even on topics having nothing or little to do with the PRC. The impression that I get from the Chinese posters is, "We cannot accept criticisms by outsiders but we reserve the right to criticize you." That strikes me as hypocritical in the extreme.

The bottom line though is that our criticism of the US, PRC or any other country is done as individuals. Many of the posters here who are percieved as taking an anti-PRC stance spend much more time criticizing the US and the current admin. and the Chinese posters and others are welcome to criticize the US too on the same basis.

 

FYI Harrer while he was a member of the Nazi Party as many Germans were in the 1930's had very little to do with the party and at the outbreak of WWII was a civillian in India there as a mountain climber. From the start of the war he had no contact with Germany as he was first imprisoned by the British in India and escaped to Tibet. Also while there is no doubt that the Nazi Regime was evil not everyone who was involved with the regime was evil, particularly those who were the farthest away from the European conflict. During the Rape of Nanking German diplomats used their Nazi credentials to save many Chinese from the depredations of the Japanese military.

 

I dont mind if non-americans want to criticize the US, we deserve it.

but dont get all offended if we criticize other countries when they deserve it.

you dont want to hear it?

tough

 

Sishir, I mean Yao Ming Kicks Ass, I've missed you. I've said something similar, but it seems to carry more weight coming from you, since you weigh 310 pounds.

Thanks!



D&D. Attempt to be Civil!

Impeach Bush for Promoting Torture.

 

I'm still reading through this thread so again I apologize if this has been addressed.

You are doing what you accuse others of doing and arguing without full knowledge. I've studied the Dalai Lama and read about his life and if you did so you might find that your view of him is mistaken. You are portraying him as presenting a false front in regard to the fact that he met Mao before he went into exile. What you may not be aware of was that the Dalai Lama was only a teenager then as he was only 15 when the PRC moved into Tibet and at that time very ignorant of the World outside of Tibet. Like most teenagers he was also very impressionable at the time and for awhile was very impressed by Mao as Mao was a very passionate and charismatic leader. As he got older he began to realize that what Mao was advocating was a threat to himself and the Tibetan religion and chose to flee. Looking at what happened to Tibet in the Cultural Revolution and to the Panchen Lama and many other Tibetan monks he was right.

What is interesting though about the Dalai Lama is that he doesn't deny that he had met with Mao or that for awhile he did have a favorable impression of Mao and mentions that in his autobiography. That is hardly the position of someone who is trying to hide his past.

You might also find it surprising that the Dalai Lama himself acknowledges the deep problems with Tibetan society prior to 1950 and he has said that it is a good thing that Tibet was exposed to the wider world and that the theocracy was done away with. He has also said that he never wants Tibet to go back to what it was and he himself doesn't want political power in Tibet. Far from denying accusations about problems in Tibet prior to 1950 he admits to them and has stated they shouldn't be repeated.

At the same time though it is ridiculous to blame those problems on him. He was only 15 when the PRC took over and only 20 when he fled into exile. He had never wielded power in Tibet having been too young to and then when he came of age being under PRC control. While the theocracy of Tibet was responsible for the slavery and feudalism the current Dalai Lama had almost nothing to do with that and has spoken out against them.

The accusation that the Dalai Lama wants to restore the theocracy and return Tibet to a feudal state is even more baseless when you consider the offers that he has made to the PRC. He is basically giving the PRC everything they want such as Tibet continuing to be part of the PRC with no independent foreign policy, military or economy. Those terms would make it impossible for him to reimpose the theocracy even if that is what he wanted. All he has asked for is internal autonomy along with non-interference in the religion. Given what the Dalai Lama has offered to the PRC it strikes me as almost irrational paranoia that the PRC hasn't taken him up on his offer and continues to demonize him.

The impression that I get from the PRC and from those like you who defend their position is that you are so wrapped up in a fear of so called splittests and nationalism that you must demonize the Dalai Lama. In your mind if the rest of the World admires him it is only because the rest of the World are tools of the West and out to get China. The problem though is that the Dalai Lama is admired by many who are very critical of the US and that much of what the Dalai Lama preaches about is antithetical to Western culture and also in opposition to the US policy.

You're certainly free to feel that the Dalai Lama shouldn't be allowed back to Tibet but if you're going to go around criticizing people for making baseless accusations you should consider what base your accusations are on.

 

Thanks...I think ...

Kidding aside about my weight I hope you don't feel that comments carry more weight because I am ethnically Chinese. If anything that diminishes my opionion in the eyes of other Chinese who disagree with me. On this BBS I've been called a traitor to my people and that I will never be welcome in China for opinions I've expressed regarding Tibet and Taiwan. Unfortunately that comes with the territory.

While I am ethnically Chinese I am an American but that doesn't mean that I am out to get China or posess any sort of self-hatred in regard to being Chinese. I will agree with the PRC vehemently that Japan needs to do more to own up to its wartime history and I also am proud of Chinese history and culture and am very impressed with the great development that the PRC has made. I don't think any of that means I shouldn't criticize the PRC when I think it deserves to be and I think on the issues of Tibet and Taiwan they are being paranoid to the point of the irrational.

 

I admit I have never been to Tibet, but I doubt many of you have ever been there, or maybe China. Even those of you who have been to Tibet, I suspect it nothing more than regualr tourism, unlike staying there for years live like a Tibetan and do some surveying. So none of us are experts on this issue. We only have opionions. Opinions are largely shaped up by what one reads and hears ...

I however remember the article I read in National Geographics several years ago. One thing I got out that piece is that average Tibetans would want to be part of China for economic reasons. They do wish to practice their religion more freely.

In a larger scale than Tibet , there is no freedom in practicing religion in China, let be Christian, Catholic, or even Buddahists. Apperantly, maybe there is one in that one can go to curch or tmple freely, but these churches and temples must be affliated with CCP in order to preach. CCP often cite the reason for their supervision is to prevent underground witch religon. To some extent, witch is a problem in China. But like many other probablems in China, the cure is a simple iron fist that kills legitmate religious practice.

In Tibet, I believe there is Dali Lama, and there is also BanChan Lama. Unlike Dali, the BanChan branch followed CCP. The whole seperation could be internal stuggle between BanChan and Dali, which I am not sure but read somewhere. Dali followed Mao ater 1949, but fled in 1957. The Tibet situation is internal to China's affair, cultral and historically. It's a mutli-facet problem. It's easy to look at it from one side, and critcize.

And thank god Tibet isnt another Chechenia. Han Kids are taught to respect Tibetan's custom and religion in school, which I can attest.

 

Welll, as we have seen on this BBS, some chinese enjoy using hitler as a means to proclaiming their victimhood as worse than the holocaust...........