The Pro-Hakeem Club! (Manny, you might as well stay out)

Is there a list for those of us who wish almost all ex-Rockets well in their future endeavors, but are too busy cheering for the Rockets to spend any time obsessing over an ex-Rocket?

 

Well, I can't believe it....ZRB finally answered some questions about his hero that didn't deal with how great he is. Too bad, that it took you a month to answer those and that we have all moved on to something else.

Look, you and I are never going to see this the same way. Let's agree to disagree here. I know that I have said that I am tired of talking about it, but at the same time, I get tired of hearing that the blame is completely on the Rockets mgmt.

If you and your "buddies" or "club" can do 2 things, ZRB, I promise on my word of honor, that I will not discuss this on this BBS:

1) Admit that Olajuwon is to blame as much or more than Rockets mgmt..i.e. it wasn't 100% Rockets mgmt fault that he left

2) Admit that just because some people felt that it would be a bad business decision to give Hakeem what he wanted doesn't mean that they are not "Rocket" fans.

Let's all remember that basketball is a team sport and not an individual sport. If this was golf or tennis or track and field, I could possibly see you saying something like you have said about #2. However, basketball is not golf, tennnis, or track and field, and Olajuwon doesn't play on the Rockets any more. Just because some of us (really most of us) have been able to move on with our lives and not care about how he does with the Raptors, doesn't mean that we are no longer fans of the Rockets anymore.

 

Hey, didn't 49er fans still love Joe Montana after he left? Don't NY'ers still love Broadway Joe? And all of us still post in the other forums, so who's obsessing? Please keep in mind it was a Dream basher (DoD) who started the latest round of disputes...

 

The joy Hakeem gave me,as a Rocket, far out weighs anything thats happened recently.He is the reason I became a basketball fan and a Rocket fan and I'll always have much love for Dream.

 

I seldom visit this board anymore becaue Hakeem has left and many posters really said something nasty about Dream every now and then.

I am more of a Hakeem fan than a Rockets' fan. I do like many of the current Rockets players though, but not as a "fan".

I know ZRB made many stupid comments in the past, and he is still going to make them in the future. But you know what? I like him. Because some of his stupid comments like "Rockets suck" are clearly just letting go of some steam; a show of his temperament. I don't mind that at all. In fact, I like that. His posts are quite interesting most of the times.

I would rather talk with someone with quick temper than with someone who has deep rooted bias who refuses to listen to reasons.

 

It's funny how one issue can put you on someone's "enemy list". It's sorta weird when you find out how someone else views you.

I will disagree with anti-Olajuwon'ers until the cows come home, but that won't stop me from agreeing with them on many other topics.

 

I'm assuming that you are talking to me, hey DREAMer?

If you remember a post that I had earlier in this thread, I stated that I don't like to get into name-calling with people on this BBS. However, after trying many times with ZRB (and you as well), I was left with no alternative, but to post on a level to get his attention because it was obvious that what was getting HayesStreet's attention wasn't getting ZRB's. And guess what? It worked because ZRB responded with a logical and thought-out post (for him).

You know why I like this BBS, DREAMer? I like it for 3 reasons:

1) To find out information on and discuss my favorite NBA team, the Rockets
2) To find out information on other things in the world (the Hangout Forum)
3) To have "spirited" discussions and arguments with people who don't agree with me on things.

I have to admit that it would be fun at first, but get really boring if everyone on this BBS felt the same way about everything the same way I did. It is refreshing and essential to have people who will step in and say, "but I think that this is....". Nothing gets under my skin more than anything than for someone to say "hey, I don't agree with you" and then say "but I'm not going to answer why I don't agree with you" or not share their side with a logical and rational argument.

Just because someone doesn't agree with me on this BBS hardly makes them my "enemy". For someone to be my "enemy", I would have to meet them in-person (not over the Internet) and see how I would interact with them for a period of time before I could make that judgement. I'm happy to say that in my 28 years of living, I only have one "enemy" and that was a girl that played me for a fool and I later came to the conclusion that she was a looney tunes case. If I met you, ZRB, or anyone else off this BBS in person, I doubt that I would go up and say "why you son of a b!itch, I want to kick your ass for that Stackhouse thread in the NBA Dish forum!" I would more likely laugh about the disagreements and hope that we could find something to talk about that we agree on or if we don't agree on something, we could have a logical and rational discussion about it.

And, I could care less if you post in a thread of mine whether you agree with me or disagree with me. I would just ask that if we do disagree and I asked you in a logical way why you felt that way, that you wouldn't just ignore me or post something that is not thought-out or logical.

It helps me learn things when I see something debated from both sides. This includes debates that I am in, as well.

 

Good point, u tell them.

 

Okay, "enemy" may have been overstating it, but how about "adversary"? From the above quotes, I sure don't see me being on your "warm & fuzzy list"....

Also, I wasn't just talking about you, it was just a general statement, which happened to include you.

 

Manny -I enjoy your posts and analysis - you are what makes the Clutch BBS great. You have helped me closely reflect on my opinions and viewpoints. If I do not always agree with you - it is done with the utmost respect to your opinions.

Keep it going strong!!!

 

Im in!!!


Dream was/is the man, I loved him and just because he changed teams dont mean a thing to me.This is a buisness and Dream's days as a Rocket are over but that doesent mean you forget.I will never forget all the things he did and all the nights I watched him play, I have enjoyed watching him since I can remember, and I can think of no other player that I would of rather have than Dream, not even JORDAN!!!

Dream keep it up and hopefully he can stay healthy or at least be healthy when playoffs come along so he can contribute and possibly get the Raptors to the finals.Im usually for the Bucks but now that Dream is on the Raptors I will back them.

 

That is by far the best way to sum up the Hakeem situation. Thanks JAG.

On to Manny...

1) Didn't Olajuwon say he was going to retire after this past season? I know he changed his mind, but why do any of you never address how him changing his mind, after it seemed to me that he promised the Rockets he would retire, placed them in an awkward position. Do the three of you enjoy seeing Rockets Mgmt placed in awkward positions?

The first example of how all your views on Hakeem are based on your perception, not facts. "It seemed to me that he promised the Rockets he would retire"...guess what, what "seems to you" is not a fact. But anyway, WHO CARES if he said he was retiring? Are people not allowed to change their minds? I guess the Rocket organization never changes THEIR mind? Hell, every time an organization makes a trade, they're in effect changing their mind. You sign someone to a contract because you want their services...you trade them and you change your mind, you want something better. Awkward positions? Please. Were they in awkward postions when they were screwing people like Othella Harrington and Kevin Willis?

2) Olajuwon has averaged around 58 games played the last 2 seasons. Yes, he had some brilliant moments last year, but too often he was out of shape, getting dunked on, and even getting his shot blocked by the rim ! It was very hard for me to watch such a great athlete like him struggle like that. Do the three of you enjoy seeing him struggle like that?

So I guess Hakeem Olajuwon should base his career decisions on what Manny Ramirez of the Clutchcity.net BBS is comfortable with? "Well, I really would like to keep playing basketball, but Manny Ramirez doesn't like to watch me struggle...I better think twice about that".

3) You-all know very well that considering the money and length of years that he wanted, that the Rockets wouldn't be able to get anyone decent in free agency let alone re-sign their own key free agents.

Time out. How exactly do you know what kind of contract Hakeem wanted from the Rockets, or what he would have been happy with? Do you have some kind of inside info on Rocket contract negotiations? I wasn't aware that those negotiations were a matter of public record. Another example of you basing your position on speculation.

Let's say that the Rockets re-signed Hakeem to a similar deal that he had last time with them.

Do you have any idea what the last deal Hakeem had with the Rockets was for? Why on earth would anyone think he would get money anywhere approaching that? This is a bad way to start a hypothetical...

That means that Moochie, Mo, and Glen Rice (Shandon Anderson) would not be with the Rockets.

The reasons you use to insult Hakeem just baffle me. Are there any facts coming anytime soon? A) You have NO IDEA whether Hakeem wanted to play with the Rockets or not, B) You have NO IDEA what kind of deal Hakeem wanted from the Rockets, C) You say that had the Rockets signed Hakeem to the money he wanted (which you have no way of knowing what that was), they couldn't sign their other free agents (again, how you can figure that out not knowing what Hakeem would have made let alone the other Rocket FAs would have made escapes me). This is your justification for slamming a legend? Wow.

The result is another lottery year. Do the three of you enjoy seeing the Rockets be a perrenial lottery team like the Grizzlies and the Warriors?

There are so many things wrong with this statement that I'm not sure where to begin....in fact, I won't begin.

Manny, if you want to cut and paste your favorite anti-Hakeem remarks from the other thread into this one, I'll give it a shot with a reply.

 

I'm too impatient to read this entire thread, but I noticed that you (ZRB) did not include me in your initial list. Well, include me, dammit.

Hakeem is the whole reason I'm a sports fan, not just a basketball fan, or just a Rockets fan. I didn't get into sports until the late '80s (I'm now barely 26) when I first started paying attention to some foreign dude on my hometown team who went to UH, who was kicking everyones collective asses.

Out of my love for Hakeem grew my love for the Rockets. It still wasn't until a few more years that I became more than slightly interested in the Astros and Oilers, and the Oilers left when I just started getting interested, so so much for football. Of course, now that the Texans are here, I'm interested again.

But it all started with Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon, so I am DEFINITELY an official Hakeem defender.

 

Freak:
Believe it or not, I appreciate you taking the time to come up with a thought-out post about this. Yes, this topic is something that has been discussed ad-naueasm by not only YOU but ME as well. I'm going to try to do all my refuting in this thread ONLY.

Well, I guess him saying that "the best thing that the Rockets could do was to keep the team together" was a figment of my imagination or maybe not:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/sports/bk/bkn/969169


Talk about awkward positions, what would you say about these 2 links?

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/sports/bk/bkn/763393

http://www.clutchcity.net/news.cfm?NewsID=500

In reading those articles, it is pretty apparent to me that Olajuwon is not happy with the Rockets.

The fact of the matter, Freak, and this is something that I have ALWAYS said in my discussion on the matter, is that Olajuwon complained heavily when he wasn't the focal point on the offense. You don't believe me and think that I'm making this up because I'm so "anti-Hakeem"?

Freak, ever since I've been here, you HAVE ALWAYS been sentimental about Olajuwon and very touchy about this subject. So, you are saying, essentially, that you can be sentimental but I can't? You want to disagree with me? How about these links?

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20427&perpage=30&pagenumber=2

Look at your post on the 2nd page at 4:25 p.m. You admit to crispee, that you ARE SENTIMENTAL and you say "so what, that's what sports is about". So, please, don't accuse me or tell me that I can't be sentimental when you are sentimental yourself.

Okay here are some more links for you:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/sports/bk/bkn/969169

Once again, see above link from the Chronicle....

The fact of the matter, Freak, is that you have always been like this when it comes to Olajuwon . The above BBS link in which you tell Crispee that you are sentimental, Mango provides you with scores and scores of links to show you what everyone else except for you, ZRB, RodneyMcCray (who's really Bob Rainey), and I think, FranchiseDream knows is true. But instead of coming up with links back to refute Mango's argument, you instead jump off into some story about him (Mango) flying into some tangent and also somehow bring Almu into the picture and you use him as a shield saying that Mango's articles aren't relevant because of what Almu was saying.

How about this link, Freak?

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20439&highlight=loyalty

Once again, most everyone in that thread disagrees with you about this subject. Several people even called you a "drama queen" (Puedlfor and Crispee) in the 2 BBS posts that I have provided. I know that I'm never going to change your mind, and I will give you that I might have been a little mean-spirited with some of my comments about Olajuwon (especially, when I first started posting here). However, as stated before countless times, just because I disagreed with the way that Olajuwon left doesn't make me a non-Rockets fan. I'm happy that he feels that he is needed in Toronto, but as Dr of Dunk said in either this thread or the other one (I don't know..I've lost track), he (Olajuwon) is not a Rocket anymore.

That's great that you feel the way that you do about Olajuwon, but all I'm trying to tell you, is that if people disagree with you on Olajuwon, that doesn't mean that they are "not Rocket fans."

I have said this before and I'll say it again, both sides, IMO, are to blame for him not being here . For people to place all the blame on the Rockets mgmt, which seems like what you are doing, is simply not true. I have shown you articles from the Chronicle that would make anyone (who's looking at this objectively) believe that Olajuwon was not happy here and then later retracted those statements. So, what are people supposed to think about something like that?

 

I really don't see how contract posturing warrants slamming a guy. There's nothing in that article that is out of the ordinary. What are you taking issue with there? I don't understand.

Again, what is the point here? Yes, Hakeem was not happy...and? Does that supercede everything else he did for the city? Are you saying that you care more about the incidents in those articles than the 2 championships the Rockets have, and that the Rockets still exist? I'll have to return to the quote by the great JAG:

"I don't judge a year on how New Year's Eve went."

What makes you think I don't believe you? Did I ever say Hakeem didn't complain? If you're anti-Hakeem, it's for continually bringing up the events of the tail-end of his stay in Houston. Why continue to bring up those events? Is that the only thing that happened in the past 20 years with Hakeem? That's just a blip on the radar, man. Yet whenever Hakeem is discussed, it's always the negative with you. That would lead someone to conclude an anti-Hakeem agenda existed, would it not?

Quit making things up. When did I say you couldn't be sentimental? I said Hakeem shouldn't base his career decisions on what you feel. How does that equate to you not being allowed to be sentimental?

Re: Hakeem's contract negotiations. I stated that you had no idea what kind of money he wanted, or whether or not he really wanted to stay in Houston. This is in response to your statement You-all know very well that considering the money and length of years that he wanted, that the Rockets wouldn't be able to get anyone decent in free agency let alone re-sign their own key free agents. The link you provide does nothing to refute my critique of your statements. The only thing that can do that are transcripts of the actual negotiations, and any access to Hakeem's thoughts you may be able to demonstrate. The article is nothing but contract posturing.

Of course not. What does is continuing to bring up the incident over and over, and emphasize it above anything else that transpired in the past 20 years. Anytime Hakeem Olajuwon's name is mentioned, the first thing that a ROCKET FAN would think of, would be 2 championships, best Rocket ever, all that crap. However, the first thing you always seem to bring up is the way he left the Rockets, and always with a negative, anti-Hakeem spin. Why?

If both sides are to blame, why do you never insult Rockets' management? Why are all your derogatory remarks directed towards Hakeem? If only a few of us seem to stick up for Hakeem, surely the balance is already well in your favor, no? Yet you always seem to insult Hakeem, not the Rockets, even though you say "both sides are to blame". Can you explain that?

There's really not much to think about there, only that people change their minds, also that what people say through the media isn't always the truth. Some people aren't good in front of the camera, some people measure their words carefully to get the upper hand in negotiations...the Hakeem incident just isn't unique in that regard. Has a general manager ever said "this is the coach we want...we're completely satisfied with his performance"? Gee, that only happens once a month it seems. And what does it usually mean? That coach is about to get fired. Don't pretend to know what people really think or what goes on behind closed doors.

 

I was a Hakeem defender long before anyone!

I should be on that list, and an original member!


I defended before contract negotiations, and even during the season when he was injured!

I demand n exception for me to be put on the list!

 

Freak:

I have a feeling that this argument could go on forever, but I'm afraid that I'm going to have bow out. I just wish I was a better debater and had more stamina. To borrow a quote from Almu in one of the threads that I gave you a link to, "You are right, Freak." Because of your literality, you are accusing me of making things up, and you answer articles that directly quote Olajuwon (the business of him saying to keep the team together) with conjectures. So, LOL...how am I supposed to "win" this argument? However, I should have expected this because in that same thread that I gave you in my previous post (the Almu reference), several people pretty much presented excellent cases against your arguments and your responses were puzzling at times. So, why do I think that I would be different?

A couple of points, though:

1) I will admit that I had probably said some things that could be considered over-the-line with Olajuwon, but I was bitter and I also didn't do a great job of communicating that here since I was new and figuring out how to post effectively. I'm now to the point where I really don't care anymore.

2) You asked me if I ever had anything bad to say about Rockets mgmt? Well, I know that I have said this before but I couldn't find the thread (so, you are going have to take my word on this), but I said that Olajuwon probably first felt slighted when the Rockets offered Cato that insanely, ridiculous contract. That, Freak, was a huge mistake by the Rockets front office . Why you give a guy that big of a contract after one pre-season game just because he had 13 blocks is beyond me. However, there have been scores of Cato sucks threads and posts, so there's no need to talk about it much, especially when others have already done so.

3) I just wish that people would see that this situation wasn't 100% Rockets mgmt's fault. If you, ZRB, and DREAMer could just do that one time, I guarantee you on my word of honor, that you would never hear me talk about this again unless someone asks me about it.

You feel about Olajuwon the way I do about John Elway, but your feelings for Olajuwon are akin to idolatry. The Broncos are my favorite NFL team because of him, and there will be no player that will come close in overtaking him as my favorite. However, he did not handle the Dan Reeves thing well at all, IMO. I will defend him to the death but if someone said, "But he essentially got Reeves fired by complaining about him to the Denver media", then I'd say, "Yea, you are right. I wish that John had handled that situation better."

This is my last post in this thread. To post anything else in this one would be pointless. If it makes you feel better to complain about Rockets mgmt, then go ahead....I don't care. However, understand if others get tired of it.

 

I sure wish you'd stop bringing me into this. Why can't you talk about this without mentioning people who are not in the discussion?

Tell me when you and I have discussed Hakeem, and especially when I said it was 0% Olajuwon's fault and 100% Rocket's mgmt's fault? If you can find it, I'd like to see it.

If you want to discuss how I feel about the Hakeem-Rockets situation, I'll gladly do it. But, after reading this entire thread, I've come to a conclusion: You don't seem to really want to discuss the issue (especially with me).

 

I would like to break in on the discussion to congratulate Manny Ramirez.

You've been a member since August 2001 and your post count is a whopping 1500+ !!!! That has got to be a record!

 

Manny is a monster on the boards!(bbs that is)
maybe he could teach MoT a thing or 2