If we consider them in isolation - that is a semi-legtimate argument. Though it should be noted how awful Jackson was on the Rockets that season - missing open shots, getting buried on defense. This was obvious. If we consider them in the context of the rockets starting lineup at the time - which I argue we should, because after all that is what matters - it is no contest and the results make that profoundly clear. Not sure why you are arguing against a trade that clearly paid immediate dividends as unsuccessful.
Agree with everything you are saying but I think Easy's point is that despite the fact that d wesley was a much better fit for our team at the time than jj, thus making the trade an unequivocal success, as individual players they were both fairly comparable, and consequently had comparable trade value making Boki's inclusion completely superfluous and direct evidence that we only sought to "give him away". The fact that DW happened to hve a disproportinately positive impact on our season doesn't necessarily make him a "better" player than JJ, it just means he was a better fit given our current personel, system, etc. but this should not in any way, shape, or form lead one to believe that his trade value was jj PLUS Boki.
But we know both of their trade value - because thats who they was traded for. We can speculate about what his trade value could have been, -but unless you have verified reports about other offers, I don't see how that has any validity at all. If I think my autographed Clyde Drexler basketball should go for 100$, and I list it on ebay and the high bid is $25 - what can objectively be said to be he value of the basketball on the open market? I would say it is $25 and not the $100 I say I should have gotten.
Actually, it was not as obvious as you claim. In fact, I say that your characterization of the trade as "wildly successful" is wildly exaggerated. Jackson was not great but not "awful" as you say. As I have pointed out, his offensive PER was just slightly lower than Wesley's but his defensive PER was much better. My memory of his game was that he was pretty solid. He played heavy minutes before traded. You never actually answered my stats argument. Look, I never denied that Wesley was a better fit with McGrady, and therefore, swapping Jackson for Wesley was a good move. But throwing in Boki is another story. That's the main point about this thread. How much Boki was worth. So are you saying that we as fans should never question the fairness of a trade? I seem to remember you always beat on a certain trade that involved a certain player who's initials is the same as a certain great player of all time.
Compare some of the stuff said on this thread with the threads about Rafer performing well in the preseason. Interesting.
The point that I feel like you're missing is that teams consistently "throw in" players with negative trade value just to rid themselves of said player's contract or free up his roster spot. Easy and I are contending this was the case with Boki. It is not merely a question of "david wesley's trade value was jj plus boki" simply because thats the trade that was done. Similar to the battier trade where we completely unnecessarily threw in swift simply because he had negative value to us. Just like we could very well have gotten battier without giving up swift as well, similarly we could very well have gotten david wesley without throwing in boki.
That's becuase it's not even a contest if we include player pairs in the contention - and by the way Jackson WAS terrible that season. Go back and read the old game threads. What you don't see in the PERS is that he got LOTS of open shots and was unable to hit a decent percentage for the open shots. Remember how he eventually ended up on the suns and was awful there too? And he has been traded twice, once as a throw in for Wesley and once for Marc Jackson. I think we know what he WAS worth pretty clearly - now you are speculating about what he should have been worth several years later . This reminds me of when Rockets Dynasty/BBall Scientis liked to cite Hollinger's projctd PER for Vspan - why would we use projected when we actually know what the result is? No, not what i'm sayng. That was a bad trade at the time, and looked even worse after the fact. Jackson & Nachbar for Wesley worked out at the time, and if the alternative is a lotto season in 05 vs. what happend I would make it again.
One thing that just crossed my mind is that several players were talking about how great Jim Jackson is and what a locker room leader blabla...shortly before he got traded. Mmmmh...Rafer Alston has been getting a lot of praise lately... .
Point: Boki turned out to be a decent NBA player, which several of us predicted he would if he was given minutes to develop. Talk all the noise you want, backtrack, backpedal, talk about contracts, talk about the fact that Rudy didn't play him his rookie year, justify the fact that you said he wasn't an NBA player, blah, blah, blah. BOTTOM LINE: Dude can play. Boki is an example of a Euro player that Van Gundy did not play or develop. You can talk about Rudy, but it was his rookie season and before the season started, Rudy said he wan't going to play. Rudy was planning on playing him after that. Van Gundy came in and sat on him. He was a throw in to New Orleans, they had no reason to play him, didn't even want him. They just took him to get rid of Wesley. He finally landed in a place that felt he had some value and they gave him some minutes and he finally got comfortable and responded. How about and ongoing prediction/prognostication, Boki haters???? Do you think he will be better this year, or was last year a fluke? I predict this will be his breakout year, I think he will average double digit points and I look for the Nets to attempt to trade Jefferson or Carter for a quality big man so they can move Boki into his spot. I predict he will be a sought after free agent if the Nets do not work out an extension with him early.
Exactly, why get a run down player on his last legs when you can develop one that will be an asset for 10 years if need be? Makes no sense....the Rockets were NOT going to win it all that year, so they should be developing for the future, that is where the crux of my point is made... Same with Billy last year.....at some point you have to play youngsters to see what they will become ala Manu and Tony Parker etc, you make your team stronger overall by developing talent rather than trading the future away consistently for the present. DD
Why don't we take it a step furhter and say the Rockets should have given up every year for the last five years (none of which they were true title contenders) in order to field a starting lineup of LeBron, Yao, D. Williams, Durant, and Bargnani. Otherwise I will take trading trash (that was traded again, as trash, two years later) for a chance to win 50 games and go to the playoffs - which is what happened.
You are citing posters' comments on this board as evidence that Jackson was terrible? You used PERs to prove that Jackson was much worse than Wesley defensively as SG. Now when the stats don't fit your argument, you conveniently brush it aside and say what we "don't see in the PERs." I could also say what you don't see in Wesley's defensive PER is that he consistently got burned by opposing SG and brush aside your PER argument. Sam, I expected you to be better than that. My suspicion is, your despise of Boki is so strong that you would use any argument to diminish his value, thereby clouding your objective judgment. We don't actually know how VSpan would turn out had he chosen to stay. Are you denying there is a thing called potential when we evaluate a player? In fact, it can be argued that Yao is a slow bloomer too. In his second year, many people, including myself to a certain degree, lost hope that he would ever become a dominant player. Should we have traded him for Amare then? Jackson for Wesley worked out. Nachbar, you don't really know. And as we have pointed out, the so-called "wildly successful" result has many other factors. You don't know if that trade alone could have got us into the playoffs. (BTW, we don't really know if McGrady's improved performance after the trade was the result of the trade or just T-Mac's usual slow start in a season.) And you don't know if that trade got rid of a player who could become more valuable than Luther Head for us a few years later when we would be ready to contend for a championship. We can only speculate, based on our own opinions on player potential. We all know your opinion on Boki's potential.
Who is to say that if we kept a developing player we would not still have made the playoffs? That is where your argument breaks down, we are talking about players on the fringe of a rotation getting some minutes to get comfortable in the NBA game and then if and when they blossom you have a much more valuable asset. David Wesley did an OK job that year, but hardly worth trading 5-6 years of a contributing player for one year of a player on his last legs. That is just bad business. DD
In a post full of errors and lies, this one jumped out at me. Look up the stats, he played substantially more with JVG than he did with Rudy. I know you suck the teat of the euro player like some others, but facts are facts kid.
Well YOU DID for one when you said the team was going nowhere that year and blah blah blah. It appears in "Classic Moments" IIRC. If I had search I would find it.
When I say "Nowhere" I mean they are not going to have a realistic chance at winning it all, which is really all that matters. I guess my definition of nowhere is set to a higher standard. If you are destined to lose in the first round or barely be a marginal playoff team, I believe you should develop some of your younger players, not put them as starters per se but rather give them some consistent playing time. That is pretty much the reason I liked Boki and V-Span, and this year....Harris. DD
So when Brooks and Landry and Harris are numbers 13 to 15 in an 8 man rotation this year I trust you will be screaming for Rick's head? You know what I wouldn't be surprised if you were. Coach DD > all.
Actually, this year I feel the team IS a contender, so I don't expect anyone to be developed. I base my thoughts on my opinion on a pragmatic look at the roster, this is the first year in a long time I think the team has the talent to win it all and to compete for a title. So, even though I like Brooks and Harris, Landry (not so much yet) I don't mind them riding the pine or being sent to the NBDL. And I don't know all, these are just my opinions, some I nail....Boki...others I misfire - Langhi..... Just a fan with a take, nothing more. DD
Dude you predict a 60 win season EVERY SINGLE YEAR! I remember getting into a long argument last year with you, arguing that Rafer and Juwan were substandard players - I said they were inadequate, you vehemently disagreed and you told me you would take out the "can of I tol'ya so" when the Rox started kicking evrybody's ass in the regular season. A few weeks in to the season you pronounced it a lost cause. It's a roller coaster ride man.
