Congratulations on your extensive research into the depths of the internet. First problem, you had Dirk in your list of talented and gifted players poll, need I say more. Sure he can shoot but thats about it, other than being very very tall. Second problem, its an online poll, all that proves is who everyone likes more or who they dont like. To quote blowhards like Magic and Doug Collins who say that about 1/3 of the players in the league, depending on who they are watching that night. It does not prove a thing. You could play drinking games with color commentators, Every time they say, only a few guys in the league "insert compliment here" you have to take a drink. Same with the comment, Best "insert compliment" I have ever seen. Take a drink. trust me by the end of the night you would probably be on your way to the hospital, especially if it was a triple header. More gifted athlete. . . .. thats easy. Allen Iverson, Michael Jordan, Vince Carter, Andre Igoudala , D Wade, Kevin Johson in his prime, Charles Barkely before he got real big, we are talking Philly days. OHHH and Domonique Wilkens! if you disagree with him I will fight you I could go on, but I dont think you want to really hear it and will just disagree with me. Then it turns into a pissing match over one persons opinion versus another.[/QUOTE] there are A TON of talented players in the history of the L so you're right, it depends on who you talk to. but let's talk about actual "skills." you name something that can be done "tangibly" on the basketball court, tmac can do it all. iverson - can't post up jordan - can't shoot the 3 over defenders (if u watch, jordan RARELY take 3s where he's covered) wade - can't shoot outside of 20ft vince - i actually think he's up there w/ tmac but w/ a lower height, he can't see the defense like tracy and thus his passing is not even close AI2 - can't post up; can't shoot perimeter; can't pass kevin johnson - can't post up barkley - can't play like a guard literally on the perimeter kobe - can't just rise up on you w/o doing a few moves; can't go through screen and rise up and just shoot tracy, sure u can talk about his heart and his killer instinct and all those "intangible" stuff. but talking about PURE basketball, tracy, along w/ probably kevin garnett and kobe bryant, are arguably the 3 most talented players in the history of the L. if lebron develops a better jumper, he'll be up there too. there is NOTHING tracy cannot do on the basketball court. and he does them well. i think that's what sonny means by "gifted". no one at 6'9 should be able to do that. magic never had a perimeter game. and he's closest to how tmac plays considering size and how perimeter-oriented magic plays.
Same response. Try reading it this time, IVFL... Vaccaro's opinion was that he is "the most naturally gifted athlete" in the league. Your entire basis for challenging this statement is centered around speed. Professional basketball is not the 100-yd dash. Basketball skills include a lot more than just speed. To support my point, if speed was the single factor used in Vaccaro's argument, then all the great big men couldn't even be considered when forming an opinion about who is the most naturally gifted basketball player in the NBA. I don't think many would argue against your point. However, your point doesn't adequately challenge Vaccaro's point. You need to challenge other aspects of McGrady's skill set if you want to refute the claim. All you did was argue that T-Mac is not the fastest player ever. Yeah, I watched him blow by . . . . . . wait for it, SCALABRINI. . . . . . I hope to the high heavens that a good athlete can blow by that guy. Like I said he manufactures his own quickness through his use of feet/length, and his dribbling. he did both there. I am not saying that he is a bad athlete by any stretch of the imagination, he is a great athlete, but he is not the most physically gifted player to ever play the game.[/QUOTE]
Dear student, You still don't get it. Vaccaro never used the word "athleticism". He called T-Mac "the most naturally gifted athlete" in the NBA. You can replace athlete with player if you don't get his point. You are focused too much on speed and atheticISM. Larry Bird was one of the most naturally gifted players of all time but possessed little in the way of speed, jumping ability, etc... Basketball skills include shooting, dribbling, passing, rebounding, shot-blocking, basketball IQ, intangibles as well as other skills, not just speed or leaping ability. And, even slow, big men can possess a wide array of basketball skills. There are several big men that could be considered when arguing who is "the most naturally gifted athlete" in the NBA, including Garnett, Duncan and several others that by no means are the fastest players or the highest leapers. You may be better at making an argument for who is the greatest Track & Field star of all-time. Or, maybe you don't understand enough about the sport of basketball??
Is that the same Tracy McGrady that was told he won't make it in this league? He's not the hardest working man in the business, but he's no slacker either. That being said, I don't disagree with Vaccaro, basketball isn't everything to T-Mac and he himself said so before. He's not completely obsessed with basketball like few others are, and he does just fine without it.
Dont get me wrong, mcgrady is a great athlete, but i think a big part of why he is so good is his basketball iq. He his a really smart basketball player, and some people overlook how smart he is when he plays.
That's a great point. Fans get really emotional about their favorite sports team and players who do not win in sports are labeled "losers". Vaccaro is right. Tracy could have been the best to play the game, but some people just do not have the psychological makeup, the desire or the will to reach the pinnacle. That does not mean that person is a failure in life. It just means that he will not be a traditional sports hero when it's all said and done, because basketball is not his life and he has not dedicated his life to it. We as fans would have liked him to dedicate his life to it, but we have to accept that he won't, the same way that some of us don't dedicate our life to our job. I know some people will point to the money, but money is not a motivating factor for everybody. For some other people, Tracy could be the model of "working to live" as opposed to "living to work". Some people could admire him for choosing to live a more balanced life. That's not such a bad model. I know yall wouldn't be so pissed with Tracy if he played for the j*zz
Are you high? Kobe can't just rise up over a defender and shoot? Which Kobe have you been watching, guy? The one in highschool? T-Mac is my favorite player, but even I have to admit that Kobe is probably even better than McGrady at just rising up and shooting, seeing as he makes a higher percentage of them. T-Mac is an absolute beast, but at this point, I hate to say it, Kobe is an even bigger beast. Btw, Jordan probably didn't shoot 3's over defenders because he knew that he could get a better shot inside the arc.
Yeah basically to sum it up he has unheard of abilities for his size. He can shoot, pass, handle, everything. That's what Vaccaro probably means by most gifted, he seriously can do it all and makes it look so easy a caveman could do it. I have no doubt in my mind T-Mac would be the undoubted #1 in the league right now if his back wasn't f'ed up and if he had more of a killer instinct. He's just a little too nice in some ways to assume the the number one spot, and yeah some nights he likes to take it easy, cause he can.
No you dont get it. Okay here is a little quiz for you. Describe a good athlete, without talking about anything related to athleticism. easy right, since those two words, athlete and athletcism are not related in any way. One can stand on its own without the other. A good athlete can have limited athletic ability. Oh wait, my little friend Webster seems to disagree with you. Might want to critique this guy too
T-mac has arguably the most talent in the NBA. His back has made him take a step back by being cautious on the court and not trying to make that Sportscenter highlight dunk on a nightly basis. With the roster weapons we have this season, he can pick his spots when to take over a ballgame. What Mac did this past playoffs against the Jazz showed me he has heart because we couldn't have asked for anymore in the guy. Maybe just a rebound in the whining moments of that game 7 but hey one can't look back but just move forward and make the best of your next opportunity
I don't know what you mean by PROLOFIC, but in terms of playoff points Kobe has nearly 3x as many as TMac. TMac wins in PPG, but it doesn't matter when you consider Kobe has played nearly 100 more playoff games than TMac. The whole point of being a winner is performing to your ability. That's been the knock on TMac as he entered his later years.
he has been performing relatively to his ability in the playoffs. 29, 7, 7 are pretty doggone good i dare say. he just has to have team success to validate his greatness ala AROD. tmac has been a better all-around player than kobe in the playoffs. and kobe the last 2 yrs in the playoffs has not even performed as well as tmac in orlando when they both had to lead the teams by themselves.
I dont like the T-mac vs Yao fan issue on this board either. However, I think part of the reason you didnt have this issue back when all of the players you have listed above were playing was that there was no question who the leader of the team was, and that was Hakeem. However, I wasn't around on this message board at that time, so thats purely a shot in the dark. I do see your point though.
When you just look at T-Mac he gives off this vibe like he doesn't care or is too laid back but at this stage of his career is it completely the opposite. Just because McGrady carries himself in a cool, calm manner doesn't mean he doesn't work hard or doesn't care.
McGrady is a 29 points 7 assists 7 boards per game playoffs players. those are he's playoff numbers in he's every trip to the post season. only AI has better numbers then McGrady in the playoffs. where is this kobe has more points thing come from?. sometimes i wonder some of you people are more kobe fans then rocket fans.
Not to mention he has'nt done jack since he drove shaq out of town. i like to see kobe take a starting line of pat burk, andre declarq, Jack Vaughan, pat garrity to the playoffs and a 3-1 lead over the then prime Pistons.
Okay you just proved to me that you lack the intelligence to continue this conversation. I didn't say name smart guy, I said describe, as in give me characteristics. For someone who critiques others post and wants specific details your pretty lackadaisical on your own posting.
At least I proved something to you. Now, allow me to extrapolate... Larry Bird was relatively lacking in athleticISM yet he is one of the most naturally gifted athletes/players to ever grace the league. In other words, despite his lack of speed, jumping ability, etc... he had so many other BASKETBALL skills that were clearly naturally gifts. I still think you are misinterpreting what Vaccaro meant by his statement regarding McGrady.
The only thing you have proven is that you have a limited knowledge base to draw from. I appreciate that. And you are showing how little you know in relation to athleticism and basketball. Larry Bird is Athletic. If he was not, he would not be in the league. What you call clear natural gifts I call a result of honing what athletic ability he has. Do you think Larry Bird woke up one day, saw a basketball and started nailing 25 foot jumpers with the greatest of ease. Or better yet, was he able to dribble from day one. No, he had to work at it, if there is one constant in Larry Birds career its that he was the Hardest working guy in the NBA, first in the gym last to leave the gym. Larry Bird was athletic, what set him apart was his work ethic, not his "natural basketball skills" sorry thats one of the dumbest things I have heard. He created his "natural basketball skills" through hard work and practice. Making the most of his athleticism. Seeing what he could do physically and maximizing it. My point is that T-Mac is not the most Naturally gifted athlete in the league, there are plenty of guys that match up with him athletically sorry, in Natural gifts. . . . , who are not as good, there are also several who are more NATURALLY GIFTED, as in blessed with physical abilities that few have, such as running faster, jumping higher, cutting quicker, and any other NATURAL GIFT you would like to mention. The difference is how they use those gifts to make themselves a better player. Go back to my first post and I will once again go over how Tmac has used his natural gifts to become the player that he is. Is he the most gifted, no. I think of anyone here, your missing the boat on what he said. Like a smart man once said, If I have to explain it to you, you will never understand. Unfortunately this whole conversation has proven that point. I mean he says Naturally gifted athlete, and you want to take anything related to athleticism out of the conversation. I am done with this pointless conversation that you have contributed nothing to.
