Actually Freak...I didn't leave out one player (short of an accident) much less "a ton" . If youd like, you should check out the link provided from Francis3, and have at it. Please, enlighten me. [This message has been edited by Dreamshake (edited January 22, 2000).]
Hey, if Smith wants to be a rocket, I say let's give the kid a shot ! What have we got to lose ? We''ll just stick some fins on him, hand him a roman candle, and poof, he's a rocket ! [This message has been edited by jscmedia (edited January 22, 2000).]
Dreamshake, Do these four names pass muster with you? S Cassell Elden Campbell Vlade Divac Jayson Williams Does it seem like very few superstars during the late 1980's? Mango
Thanks for the link, Francis3. I've advocated that the Rockets consider trading down if they get in, say, the top 3 picks (not just for draft picks, but for possibly a pick or two + one or two established players). The main reason I say this is they already have their future cornerstone in Francis, so possibly adding another one, IMO, might not be a good thing (look at history, I've posted my feelings on this before, don't feel like doing it again right now). However, I've yet to hear that a Francis or even an Elton Brand-caliber player even exists in this draft, so having to select one of those players may not even be an issue (Francis-caliber players are rarely available, anyway). Nevertheless, for arguments' sake, there are many more players outside the top 5 that meet the criteria Dreamshake laid out, which was "...who seriously contributed either to their teams, or was a top notch player (not necessarily an all star)". Also, it was stated "Overall there were few players who excelled being picked in double digits." In the '90 draft, you said there were "none worth mentioning". How 'bout these: Tyrone Hill 11 Loy Vaught 13 Jayson Williams 21 Elden Campbell 27 You telling me one of those guys wouldn't be worth trading for? All of those guys started and put up very good numbers on playoff teams. How 'bout '95: Damon Stoudamire 7 (how many guys did we almost trade for him?) Gary Trent 11 Corliss Williamson 13 (Tell me you wouldn't kill to have Trent or Williamson in our starting lineup for the next 10 years) Some guys you didn't list for '96: Ray Allen 5 Kerry Kittles 8 Zydrunas Ilgauskas 20 Derek Fisher 24 '97: Danny Fortson 10 Tariq Abdul-Wahad 11 Maurice Taylor 14 (the BBS loves him) Kelvin Cato 15 Derek Anderson 13 Tracy McGrady 9 (the BBS loves him, too) Most all the guys Dreamshake did mention are/were All-Star caliber. Most of the guys I mentioned aren't All-Stars, but could be very nice building blocks, and definitely could be worth trading down for, since what we need now, IMO, are nice complimentary parts, not franchise players. I concede that a lot of people don't agree with that, probably Dreamshake as well, and he probably purposely left those guys off. Most of them aren't the caliber of the guys he listed, but are still very nice players.
Mango... Those are four players I debated over, but Ill give you my reason for not adding them. Sam Cassell. Hardest of the 4 you mention to leave off the list. But, injuries have decimated him over the last 2-3 years. Years in which he could of been producing at a clip that he is this year. Trips to several teams has definately shortened his game also. Hasn't really put up a good-great season, as a full time starter, due to all the trades and injuries. Elden Cambell. As a Laker, he was a lifetime backup. Who spark every once in a while. Last year in Charlotte, he had a terrific season. But this year has been horrible. Probably due to the fact that the Hornets have the three headed Power foward beast in Coleman, Mason, and Cambell. So I couldn't put him on the list based off of one/half a decent year. Vlade Divac. With the Lakers he was kinda of that "Pay no attention to" role player. Last year, he solidfied a stance to be noted as one of the best all around centers in the league. But much like Cambell, I believe he is struggling (Or you could say has come back down to earth) this year. Vlade is kinda of that so so to good player through his career, with one solid season Jayson Williams. Probably would of been on the list if not for the injuries he's suffered over the last 3 seasons. Right when he was about to shine as a Dennis Rodman, with some offensive skills (not much, but more than Rodman). He didn't play last year, and I believe has seen only a few games this year. Now all of these guys are talented players who were indeed chosen late. But for one reason or another, havent had a string of fine seasons. Which by all accounts is how your going to base whether or not you made a good pick or not.
Looks like you sneeked one in there on me Freak. Ill admit that I missed Ray, but he was a top 5 pick anyhow. Corliss, yeah, probably deserves on that list, but since Webber has been in town, is playing out of position, and his numbers have skyrocketed downward. Mo Taylor. Disappears too much. And I mean way too much. Had a nice all around season last year, but this year, short of the Rox game, has sat back and watched Odom, Anderson, or Candi man and sometimes Nesby run a game. He's a 50-50. Maybe your right that he should of been mentioned, but as this season progress, he's losing more and more ground. K squared. Puts up ok numbers, but is hardley what you would call, a solid contibutor on a yearly basis. Heck or even a nightly basis. As for the rest. Injuries, underachievers, roll players, and journeyman. Not much more. Which harkens me back to my original point. Draft picks 10+ that pan out to be special players are few and far between. But picking top 3 your shot at getting an all star calibre player who can lead your team into the playoffs, multiplies by leaps and bounds.
Dreamshake, OK, lets go along with your line of reasoning. Penny probably has more time spent on IR than Cassell. I don't know where to find a stat like that, but it is a hunch. In the 1993 draft, the first 5 picks were Webber Bradley A Hardaway Mashburn Rider Salary cap diferences aside, which of those five would you have on your team over Cassell? Mango
Mango...I dont quite think Penny has been injured as much as Cassell. But I could be wrong. Also, the point to my debate wasn't to say that all top 3 picks are always better than later picks. Just that a top 3 pick typically gets you a bonafied player. 10+ typically doesn't. I listed all the top 3 picks, not for an individual basis, but as a whole compared to all the other picks for the first round. BTW: Id take all those guys except Bradley over Cassell, right now. Mashburn is pushing it, but he has all around nice game.
Dreamshake, You have more patience than I do because Rider would drive me crazy. Mash is at best, even with Sam from my viewpoint. Yes, I know Mash is aces with you. Penny is slightly ahead of Sam with me. Sam doesn't rub people the way Penny does. Bradley......!!! Webber is the only one that I have as a clearcut choice over Cassell Mango ps....... this was enjoyable
I would rather keep those 3 picks instead of trading them, three picks is a lot, and at least one is a keeper possibly 2 and with the last one you gamble on someone, although Rudy and co. blew it with the Drew and Turcan picks, at least we got another first-rounder from Turcan who most likely will be a higher pick than we originaly had. Three picks in the 1st round is huge, I don't know if you guys really realise it but it is. ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
How is it huge? I think it's interesting that not ONE of those people who he mentioned that had been drafted out of the top 10 is a true superstar... whereas, more than half the players in the top 5 panned out. Let's look at it this way... this is hypothetical. Would you rather have 3 10% chances of finding a good player... or 1 60% chance?
I don't really want to get into this argument, but Dreamshake, I'm pretty sure you left off a ton of names from outside the top 10 or so picks. If you would be kind enough to provide the link where you got your info, I wouldn't mind checking that out myself if I get the time. Now you've got me curious as well.
NO If the Rockets are really going to have #'s 10, 12, 14 picks I say do not do it. A lot of great guys have come from 10 and over so... NO
Another note to mention is that. For at least the last 20 years, not one player picked in double digits has lead his team to a title. Id be willing to bet that that streak goes back quite a bit longer also. And only one player picked double digits, was instrumental (played a big role) in helping a team obtain a title. That man is Clyde Drexler picked at 14. Helping tremedously with the Rox 2nd title.
The problem w/the naysayers is that I think the %'s are against them... I haven't done anything scientific, but the success rate for the first 8 or so seems DRAMATICALLY higher than the rest of the draft, and they generally turn out to be MUCH better. Someone mentioned earlier that we already have our superstar, and don't need another. WHAT!?!??! I feel that most teams that have won have had 1-2 superstars and another two stars (the exception being the 93-94 Rockets). Look at the Lakers? Best team in the NBA w/ 3 superstars.
Dreamshake, I think your comment about stars in double digits not leading you to a title are utterly dismissing the Piston's revolutionary defense that finally stopped the scoring machines of the 80's known as the Lakers and Celtics. That defense is NOT possible without Dennis Rodman. That defense ushered in a whole new era in NBA ball and Rodman anchored it. Isiah, to me, didn't really lead them to the title, Daly's rotation defense won those titles (a defense he invented around the skills of Rodman). Just in case you don't believe how valuable Rodman was to that team...here's an excerpt of his accomplishments the year prior to the title (only his 2nd year) Plus, we have an argument about Pippen and Rodman making it so easy for Jordan to claim 3 more titles. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 23, 2000).]
Heypartner... Again. The point is, that no has lead their team to the title being picked 10+. Now I can appreciate Rodmans huge role in helping the Pistons en route to two titles, but.... Take Rodman off that team, and you still have a great team, led by Isiah and Vinny, and Bill that could possibly of still made the championship runs. Take Isiah off of that team, and you have nothing in Detroit. Pippen was selected 5th. So even if he was a bigger role than Mike (which he wasn't) it only help supply my point.
Dreamshake, I pulled a quick and dirty list of the NBA drafts over the past 20 years or so. I probably missed a name or two and could have given somebody credit that they didn't deserve. Players drafted in the top ten with Championship Rings: 1979 Magic Cartwright Vinnie 1980 McHale Toney 1981 Aguirre Isiah I am not sure about O Woolridge 1982 Worthy C Levingston 1983 R McCray (with the Bulls?) B Scott 1984 Dream Jordan Thorpe 1985 x 1986 Ron Harper 1987 D Robinson S Pippen K Smith H Grant 1988 x 1989 Elliot S King 1990 x 1991 Longley B Williams (with the Bulls?) 1992 x 1993 x 1994 x 1995 x 1996 x 1997 Duncan A Daniels 1998 x As noted above, there is probably an error or two. If you know of a source that lists championship rosters, I will gladly edit this list. It is roughly 25 out of 200 players drafted in the top ten over 20 years. Out of those with rings, I would give no more than 20 recognition for being a key part of their teams. Mango ps I inserted Thorpe in on an edit. [This message has been edited by Mango (edited January 23, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Mango (edited January 23, 2000).]
Dreamshake - Again. The point is, that no has lead their team to the title being picked 10+. True. Which is why it's good that we have Francis, who was picked 2nd. Haven - Look at the Lakers? Best team in the NBA w/ 3 superstars. For one, LA has the best record, but that doesn't get you a ring (ask Utah and Seattle). Secondly, Glen Rice and Kobe Bryant aren't superstars, and they clearly aren't "the man" on that team. Shaq is the only superstar on the Lakers. Rice and Bryant both knew the Lakers were Shaq's team when they got there.
