He doesn't have much in terms of pre-VY numbers - they were drafted at the same time. For the two games he played pre-Vince, he averaged 2.8 yards per carry. For the season, he averaged 4 ypc. In the four games around Vince starting, you had: 8 carries, 22 yards 1 carry, 2 yards -- vince starts -- 9 carries, 39 yards 8 carries, 48 yards So he improved - though that is an absurdly small sample size.
Umm, because they had another, better option? He posted a 1000 yard season because he was pretty good. In that season, he never had a game nearly as good as last week.
Quote: Originally Posted by Raven Lunatic So, going back to tally, by my count that is a total of 4 games in 9 that he was a significant factor in. To me, that's not enough to make the statement "Vince just wins" as if regardless of QB rating, he is largely responsible for most of his teams victories. As others have mentioned, he has been able to benefit largely from significant teammate contributions in many of those wins. It's not to say he won't eventually develop into a HOF QB, but right now he clearly gets more credit than is really his due. I think that is why people take exception to the hero worship he receives. . RL I agree with PGABRIEL about a nice analysis. That said I think you took it a little different than I was thinking. This was basically my point: From 04-06 in games lead by other QBs (McNair, Volek, Collins) the Titans were 9-26. They were probably THE worst team in this period. Since VY took over they are 9-5, note, that I really don't believe they are a good team now, but they have clearly become at least mediocre. I am not even sure VY would be a good QB just yet on a well oiled offense, but he certainly is a good QB and good playmaker on a sucky offense (his skill players are largely pathetic except some average to slightly above average RBs Tenn has had for the last 3 years). The only noticable and consistent player change in going from atrocious to medicore is VY (Haynesworth, Pacman, Henry have been in and out), that is why I said let's conservatively say he is 1/3 of the positive change, with somehow coaching staff, defense and special teams coincidentally and simulanously jelling after game 5 last accounting for the other 67% difference. Quote: Originally Posted by pgabriel .....secondly, how many games does he have to have a significant impact in to say he deserves the praise he gets. he only started 13, they won eight, and you say he had impact in four. that's a pretty good number for a rookie imo. and secondly, you have to factor in how many games he can directly be attributed with the loss. off top I can think of the new england game. but that's about it. the other games the team wins can't count against him either. This reflection is a contention I have as well. I can think of players on two hands at most that would make the difference between their teams winning 4 games they otherwise would have lost. A single player who is the difference between that team going 4-12 or 8-8, or 12-4 instead of 8-8 is very rare. Almost all these guys are QBs. I am not even sure the Bears would slip 4 games without Urlacher, the Chargers slip 4 games without LT (this is the most probable one, but I am not sure the Chargers are a 8-8 type team without him), the Broncos without Bailey--and these are hall of fame players by a wide margin the best at what they do right now. Even if VY only made a +3 game difference, say the Titans after looking atrocious after their 0-3 start and clearly with the most inept offense in football would have gone on to say a 5-8 with other QBs, that is a huge impact of an individual player on a football field. This is the point many of the anti-Vince folks seem to miss. Go look at the history of rookie QBs who made a 3-4 game win-loss difference for their team. Extrmely rare company, and clearly the rookie of the year voters understood VY's positive impact ont he bottom line (games won that would have been lost without his playmaking), and the rarity of such impact from a rook QB. Quote: Originally Posted by Ric so vince young made professional football players not suck? here's what i think: a) jeff fisher is a tremendous coach; 2) floyd reese hung about a decade's worth of solid drafts and free agent signings on his resume when he was with houston/tennessee; c) i think we all went to sleep on those two points. plus, over a two-year span (03 & 04), tennessee lost george, kearse and rolle, and then mcnair missed eight games in 04 and was gone after 05 - that's pretty significant turnover. so that year and the next, tennessee quietly rebuilt things; they picked in the top 10 two years in a row; they got a gift from the texans in the form of multiple day one picks... and fisher and reese went to school reshaping their roster, something they've proven to be very good at. i don't think baby vince is the reason they MAY have turned a corner; i think fisher and reese are and their efforts are starting to pay off. i mean, fisher's among the five best coaches in football and while a lot of people know it's vince and no one else, they DO have some talent on that team. and i think we should all accept that they've got a pretty good-to-great OL, a fisher hallmark. they've posted two 170+-yard individual rushing games in their past 12 - that's pretty flat-out phenomenal. And all this happened in game 5 of last year. Even with a continued exodus of players like Henry and Pacman and most of their other highly regarded veterans even before then (entire WR corp, all QBs with experience, best DB, best DL, etc) because they had to get their cap in better shape as they had spent to win those prior years. Just too much of a coincidence for me to think it was all these things together and VY has been inconsequential to their turn around. Like I said I don't think Tenn is a good team nor an above average AFC team. Outside of plugging in Brady or Peyton at QB I can't easily think of any individual player chnage I would be confident could make that team a probable playoff team. Further, I don't think they dreamed they could have been 8-8 last year, and are still wisely proceeding with more like a 3 year plan post McNair leaving/future franchise QB coming in (a major reason why they didn't give big money to Henry). Nonetheless VY is a good enough playmaker and wild enough card out there to give an otherwise inept offense some life (without him teams would just key on the RB and the offense would be dead as far as NFL standards), and there no not too many NFL players who could give the Titans offense the (still quite modest) life it does have. Oh, and many of ya'll misunderstood an argument I made. Of course I am not saying a QBs running skill is more important than his overall passing skill. But a team who can rush for 2000 yards and pass for 3000 is usually better than a team than can rush for 1000 and pass for 4000. A Qb who can run for 500 and pass for 3000 generally is going to be more effective than a guy to run for 0 and pass for 3500. The dual threat capability makes it harder for an offense to be defended. Clearly passing is where VY needs work. It would also help to have threats to throw the ball too. But even with VY having shaky elements to his passing game (and basically no wide out threats) he makes a difference. If he gets his passing game to an above average level, he will be not just a wild card and playmaker who helps his offense but be a devastating player --we will see.
Of course, the people saying VY had nothing to do with the win didn't actually see the game. They couldn't have, b/c the Texans were on at the same time. So no one actually saw what happened, they're just looking at the box score and drawing conclusions. Why didn't Jax stack the line to stuff the run? After all, VY can't throw, right? Why was TEN able to run the same play over and over with gaping holes for Chris Brown to run through? Jax was the #2 defense in the NFL, right? They have 2 pro bowl tackles, right? They have a defensive-minded coach, right? They were just helpless as TEN ran up the highest rushing total in EITHER FRANCHISES HISTORY? I guess the answer is some combination of Chris Brown is a bad-ass, TEN now has the best OL in the league and/or Jeff Fisher is a genius.
Playing alongside a legitimate running threat at QB improves his ability to run and find open holes, resulting in better numbers for the running backs, yes. Just as it did with each of the other running backs he's played with in his college and pro careers.
Not that I was in this debate anyways, but I actually saw the Titans game instead of the Texans game, since I live in Austin now. Of course he helped win the game, but he didn't look good at all. It was a terrible game for Vince and if Brown didn't have a godly game, the Titans would not have won.
You left out all those TDs and short-yardage 3rd-down conversions in college. He did pretty well without VY, actually.
Lots of people do well without VY - no one said otherwise. I don't have anything in college with VY to compare to. What does that have anything to do with anything? LT is pretty good without VY too. I don't see the relevance there either.
wow, this is the first time coming back to the thread and noticed how off topic and long it got........hmm I guess I'll have to spend my time reading through the whole thread.........
Sorry for the late reply. Naw the Titans arn't better than you or I thought. The Jags are much worse than anyone thought. If their front 7 play like that all year long... oh man They might be a good pick for a top 5 pick in the draft. I don't think they will, but man they looked bad.
VY>Schaub as an overall QB? TBD but early preliminaries say otherwise. Schaub way more polished, poised and accurate a passer than VY. VY only 68 passing yards net vs the fat cats and zero TDs and minimal impact on the ground. Chris Brown MVP for Titans in last game not VY! Those are the facts plain and simple.
So if the Titans have a .500 record again this season will VY finally get some props (some credit, not all of it)? Most predicted them to suck this season and winning 8 games is not easy....
LOL! Wow, good maybe but, great? Did Tennessee go to the playoffs last year? Hmmm ... thought not. Reggie did but did so because of Brees. Mario's success was stunted because of the plantar fasciatis yet was STILL drawing some double teams in spite of being hobbled by the condition. The Texans again went nowhere last year because we had a wrekked, sucky Carr not anymore! If VY is so great why did they lose 3 games hey, why did they lose at all? Oh I know it takes a TEAM to win consistently. Until VY has the Titans contending for the playoffs year after year I'm unimpressed. VY IS the greatest college football player perhaps ever but, it remains to be seen if he can translate that same success to the NFL gridiron. Just FYI, VYofers all it takes is one good hit to the knees and VY will suffer the same fate as Randall Cunningham. Again, running QB's typically don't succeed consistently in the NFL. DL and LB's are too fast in the NFL game. Scrambling QB's can and do succeed. Elway scrambled to buy time and get opportunities for separation for his WR's from defenders downfield and if he ran it was because that was the best option. He did not run on every down like VY's game seems to focus on. Until his passing game equals his playmaking game again his success will be very limited in the NFL. Those are the facts and they are indisputable. Plain and simple.
LOL! Wow, good maybe but, great? Did Tennessee go to the playoffs last year? Hmmm ... thought not. Reggie did but did so because of Brees. Mario's success was stunted because of the plantar fasciatis yet was STILL drawing some double teams in spite of being hobbled by the condition. The Texans again went nowhere last year because we had a wrekked, sucky Carr not anymore! If VY is so great why did they lose 3 games hey, why did they lose at all? Oh I know it takes a TEAM to win consistently. Until VY has the Titans contending for the playoffs year after year I'm unimpressed. VY IS the greatest college football player perhaps ever but, it remains to be seen if he can translate that same success to the NFL gridiron. Just FYI, VYofers all it takes is one good hit to the knees and VY will suffer the same fate as Randall Cunningham. Again, running QB's typically don't succeed consistently in the NFL. DL and LB's are too fast in the NFL game. Scrambling QB's can and do succeed. Elway scrambled to buy time and get opportunities for separation for his WR's from defenders downfield and if he ran it was because that was the best option. He did not run on every down like VY's game seems to focus on. Until his passing game equals his playmaking game again his success will be very limited in the NFL. Those are the facts and they are indisputable. Plain and simple.
Tomlinson, LaDainian CAR 17 YDS 25 AVG 1.5 TDS 1 Man that Tomlinson is a bum Rocket River just stirring up stuff for no reason
