t-cab, excellent post, m'man... i've brought up the e-griff situation many times. in my opinion, steve has yet to display the mindset necessary to be the "franchise player". what franchise player do you know of that has never popped off for a 40+ scoring game? try none. are there point guards throughout history that were franchise players and won championships? absolutely. you could argue that west, cousy, zeke thomas, jordan, archibald, etc. were all "point guards" who were franchise players. one thing you also notice about all of them: they weren't stuck on being a "true point guard." they were all, essentially, combo guards. same goes for magic. so the question seems to be: can a "true point guard" be a franchise player? my answer is NO. as for eddie...t-cab, i'm doing my best to be patient over here. but it's beginning to become apparent to me that rudy t is really stifling griffin's game development thus far. even if griff is shooting over 50% from 3 point range, it doesn't make sense to run 85% of his plays intending to get him a 3 pointer. did i say "plays"? i meant "play", as in singular. as in pick-and-fade (never pick-and-roll ) at the top of the key. run some pnr, some post plays, place his ass weakside baseline, damnit! challenge the kid to do more than walt williams does! eddie, should he develop into the kg/rasheed clone i think he can be, would be the "franchise". of that, there is no doubt. i think he'd beat the **** out of steve and cat if they didn't give him the ball down the stretch. that's a leadership quality! for real! your teammates have to have confidence - and a tinge of fear - of you. down the stretch, they have to know that damnit, it's YOUR TIME! the kid's definitely not scared to put it up. steve, at times, seems to be too busy debating whether he's shooting too much. quandries like this CANNOT exist within your franchise player's head. eddie would have NO PROBLEM putting up 40 shots in a single game. steve might have an aneurysm if he tried to do that. so to answer your question: i think steve has the physical ability to be a franchise-combo-guard-player. the question is when will he decide to be the hog he has to be in order to be all he can be? eddie, on the other hand, needs the multi-page edition of the rockets' playbook before he can even consider being the franchise player. it seems that rudy, truly, is the one who will decide who the franchise player will be...and that scares me. cause he hasn't gotten it in steve's head to look to attack at least 30 times per game, and he hasn't given eddie the multi-page edition of the rockets' playbook. steve has the ability. there is no question about that. and he has displayed the occasional "hog" tendencies that are tantamount to being a franchise player. but he still hasn't shown the consistency necessary. i forget who said it and what thread it was in, but i don't want to see steve passing the ball more, either. i want steve attacking and looking to score at least 8-10 more times per game than he is doing right now. and i want eddie to get the grown up edition of the playbook!
I agree with the Isaiah Thomas comparison. He was a point guard, no doubt about that. And people forget - he was amazing. He was at times unstoppable. Hey you could even make a slight coparison of our team to Detroit's: Francis = Thomas Mobley = Agguire Willis = Mahorn Rice = Vinnie Johnson Of course we don't have an equivalent to a young Joe Dumars or Lambeer, or Rodman
First, I don't think you can roll down the lane unless you are much bigger or taller. Guys like Thorpe, Shaq, Parish and Ewing are noted for picking at the elbow and rolling to the basket. Rolling to the wing like Karl Malone, Mo' and KT will allow the defense to shut off the rest of the team and make you beat them. With those guys, that's what you want; you want the defense away from them, because they can shoot and make moves off the dribble. Further, Stockton and Francis need to work with clear lanes as much as possible, so that is another reason why you roll to the wing with them, not down the center. Choosing to bring a 19yr slowly into this wing roll is called "patience," as you say, not "stifling his development," as you also say. I'd rather have him fight for the block and get low post for his baseline turnaround than to roll to the wing 20' feet out in an isolated position...maybe a couple times against second team, but let's have some patience with this. Griffin is being positioned in a top of the key pnr sets, which allow him to shoot or find a readily available passes ... or drive. KT drives down the middle often doesn't he? How is that stifling? To me, it is more helping him have more safety outs than putting him on the wing like Mo. Secondly, do you think KT was stifled as a rookie? I vividly remember him running the pick and "fade" for 3 pointers exclusively, several games before he started taking his man from the top or the elbow area. We don't know if Griffin is doing this in practice, yet. But if KT was not stifled from doing it, then I doubt Griffin will be, once he gets used to NBA defense. We could say that KT was allowed to do it, because we were throwing the season away anyhow....well, let's not throw this season away. Low post for some turnarounds...bring it. That's what Griffin did in college, right? I'd like to see that development. I think we will see it more against the East, later. As for positioning weakside baseline, where are you putting Rice and Mobley, then. Right now, Mobley starts in the weakside corner on most plays. Movement happens from there. Griffin could help out with that weakside movement with interior picking...but he might just be getting in the way until he gets comfortable picking on cue. Hell, I saw both Rice and Torres screwing up weakside pick timing in the 1st half against SA, leaving Francis to improvise busted plays. Right now, imo, it is easier for Griffin to work strongside with Francis than to have him wonder around weakside with two vets--Rice and Mobley. He'll get his low posts soon enough. But against Brand, SAR, Duncan and Garnett are not ideal situations to get him a taste of success. patience...verse...I largely agree with you...except the patience part and the weakside part.
heyp, oh how i'd love to have a playbook or a damn napkin so i could visually diagram what i'd like to see. hey, maybe the next time i come over to houston, we'll chat over heineys and napkins... anyhoo, i disagree about needing to be taller/bigger to roll to the basket. you're assuming that he's going to be cut off. imo, cat and steve attract so much attention that christopher reeves could roll to the basket for a layup. i'm trying to be patient, really. as for kt, hmm, good one. i don't think kt was being stifled. i thought kt jacked up too many 3s his first few games, but - if i remember correctly - it was only the first 2 or 3 games. after that he at least attempted to go to the bucket. he may have bricked every layup he took, but he at least tried it... keep in mind, also, the kt did not - and does not - have a go to move of any sorts. he's a malik rose type player. griff has a go to move, and i'd like to see it on the court. maybe you're right. maybe we'll see it against the east (i don't know why not against the west, but hey, why not). where to place griff weakside? ok, assuming the oh-so-difficult-isolation setup...how about weakside baseline? roughly 10- 15 feet out, similar to the triple post set up. say you're looking at the basket ok? griff: right side, baseline, 10-12 feet out. mobley: right side, ft line extended, 3 point line. francis: left side ft line extended, 3 point line. rice: left side, elbow, ready to set pnr or pnf w/francis cato/willis: right side, elbow, ready to backscreen for cat or griff, or dive to basket. opportunities: 1. francis iso. rice clears to top of key. 2. griff backscreen for cat 3. francis/rice pnr 4. francis/rice pnf 5. mobley rubs off of cato screen, for reggie miller-esqu 18 footer at top of key. 6. cato backscreen for eddie. 7. rice quick post up. 8. rice slip screen with eddie and crashing cato as release valves. 9. francis penetrates and flip back to rice, or over to eddie or across to cat... nothing else work? rotate rice to the corner, displacing francis. whaddya have? francis top. rice left cat right. eddie on right: either baseline 10-12 or high post cato on left: low post. basic setup.
#10 (under opportunities): rice feigns the pnr setup and sets a back screen for a baseline cutting griff. forces the defense to switch - leaving eddie guarded by a sf, or forces the defense to let eddie get not just deep, but "shaq-deep" in the post.
I saw some guy compare Mobley to Aguire? Maybe the youngster didn't get a chance to watch Mark, be he was a career 25pt scorer. They say the pistons didn't have low post scorers but they went from Dantley to Aguirre, both of whom were great on the blocks. You can't make that comparison.
Heineken....**** that ****! yes, let's draw some napkins together. basically, you are exchanging griff for Rice working strongside with Francis. I'm not against this. I could name some disadvantages, though. Look at it from the defensive standpoint. You are making it easier to guard Rice and Francis at the same time (think zone), thus making it harder for us to flatten defenses and drive, by allowing them to overplay the strongside even more. The basic philosophy would be to ignore Griffin in the far baseline and guard Francis tougher. If the Rockets then want to move the ball around to get Griffin baseline, let them, and use rotation defense to catch up with that ball movement. Now Griffin is a playmaker with few options, and Francis is weakside. <b>bare in mind, I agree with you that this set-up can become the key to thacabbage's vision.</b> But also, slowly working Griffin into the wing pnr could be the key to thacabbages vision. Francis with Griffin playing a top of the key pick n roll (as we are seeing now) helps prevent the defense from cornering Griffin into becoming a 19yr old playmaker. He has more outs when in the middle--shoot, drive, or pass to either side. The other problem with Rice and Francis running pnr's is that you lose a lot of flex options (swinging it to run a weakside play) if the offense is overplaying Francis. I'm just being a devil's advocate here. The Rice/Francis pnr could work. Personally, I want to see it, too. But imo, the advantage is not having Griffin on the baseline (at this time), but rather having a better attack against the trapping defense of Francis. I guarantee you, if we run a Rice/Francis pnr, they will NOT trap it by leaving Rice, like they do with Griffin and KT. That in itself could be an advantage enough to run it. btw: <b>NIKEstrad</b>--good post.
I know I'll get flack for this but................If we ran more of a motion offense (double picks, backscreens) Cuttino would be the "franchise" guard. I base my logic on this........imagine if Steve were injured and Mobley ran the point with Torres at the 2 Mobley would give out the same production statistically to Steve however if Mooch is at the 1 and Steve at the 2 the offense is very streaky. We will win more often than not with Cuttino. That's just my opinion.
The Thomas/Dumars comparison is very apt here. A team led by guards can win the big one. We just have to be lucky and avoid facing Shaq in the playoffs like Jordan and Co. never had to face Olajuwon.
I think a point guard can lead his team to a championship... Jason Williams did it for Duke last year. Yeah, he had Battier, but there is no question who was the best player on the floor anytime they played anybody. I think he will be a "franchise" player in the NBA. To me, the "franchise" player is the key member of the team and the person that would be missed most if they were missing. That's definitely Steve now. They may not lead in all statistical categories, but is there any doubt that Jason Kidd is the franchise for new jersey? Maybe EG will develop into that type of player as well. He certainly has the potential.
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the first Rockets championship with Dream and 4 other guys on the floor.
heyprissy, no heineys eh? ok, bring on the man's beer. guinness? bass? black and tan...mmmmm....yummmmm....my favorite. red stripe? if you say pearl, i'm gonna have to slap you silly. ***** oh, and i think you're forgetting that cat is on the weakside in that situation. should they try to collapse on steve, griff is 1 option, but the cat-quick mobley is another. try stopping cat when he has 6 seconds to make a move to get to the bucket and the defense is trying to rotate! also, i see what you're saying about grooming griff from the top of the key as opposed to the baseline. i'm not suggesting to abandon that philosophy. i'd just like to see them add this philosophy, as well...
the thing is while yes our guards rule and are very important, lets not forget we will have 4 bonfide options in 3 or so yrs mo,griff,stevie,cat-thats a ton to contend with plus if you look at the standpoint of def/off combination needed to win c-griffin-great all around player pf-mo-good offensive player sf-morris-defensive player, timely offense sg-cat-dynomite scorer, improving def-easy to see all around pg-stevie-great all around player thats a combination you need to take it all, yes its contingent on morris and griffs development but if they come along like they should i think we will undoubtedly win a title soon since our bench with mooch,torres,kt, and others will be good too
Did I hear someone say soon? How soon? 5,6,7 yrs? Looking at our conference and assuming everyone else young players progress like we are assuming ours, after LA you still have sac, dallas, and even the Clipps whom we are behind in 2 or 3 yrs. Personally, i don't no one other than SA, and sac are capable of beating the lakers in the next 2 yrs, Next after duncan leaves SA, I don't think anyone will seriously challenge the Lakes until Shaq gets tired of winning rings. As long as he and Kobe are their, they are still the best in the west becaus of the shots they both can get. High % 2's beat low % 3's. Shaq is 29 and kobe is 22, if we assume shaq starts to slow in 4yrs then we have a shot then, but before then, i don't think so. Its not about that I'm sorry about that tangent, but people tend to think that only Rocket players will get better while the other teams players will stay the same. I look at this team and we don't have a bundle of talent like clipps, dallas, and some of the other teams. We have 1 super star in Steve, 1 pretty good player in Cat, and a bunch of regular role players that would have problems starting on other teams. You can make a case for Glen Rice starting on other teams, but you couldn't name me 5 teams he could start for right now. Thats why I think its vital, almost crucial that Griffin becomes the player everyone thinks he can be which is 18pts 12 rebs and 3 blks per game. If he does not develop into that kind of player, then we will be in the same boat as Phoe,Sea,Denv, and some of the other teams just trying to make the playoffs and getting blasted in the first rd. I just hop we do something this yr and next to show some kind of progress.
For some reason, i only see a backcourt doing that good with a top-notch rebounder. I'm talking 14 rebounds per game. Fortson, Mutombo, Ben Wallace. these guys are what we need in the paint. I'd trade Mo Taylor for Ben Wallace in a second, because our trio (Wink, Cat, Rice) would become much more effective with Wallace and Willis pulling in 20 rebounds a night between THEM only.
No doubt about it, we will only start to become great next year when Griffin starts to produce big time. In the meantime, doesn't anyone else wish we had gotten Joe Johnson? Wow, that guys incredible. This Rookie crop beats last year's by a mile. The Rookie challenge is gonna be very interesting this year.
Regarding the initial question: Hey, no team with a HoF powerforward has won the championship in recent memory, so does that mean you can't build a team around a great PF? No, I do think so. Even if you say Duncan is one, he is closer to a center than Magic is to any position outside of PG, so you can use the same logic there to discount that position. Another way to look at it is the very best players in recent memory are Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, & Magic. Thay play every position but PF, but again I don't think you can read into that much or conclude don't build your team around a great PF. Basically, I don't think it matters what position you play if you are a great player. As mentioned Detriot was a guard laden team. Phily last year who did awefully well was lead by a 6'1" guard with arguably less raw athleticsm than Steve. If Stevie, Cuttino and Moochie can play like Detriots triumphant, and Eddie, Cato, Rice, Thomas, Wills and the rest can fill out the roster like the rest of the Pistons, were in business (actually Willis, and maybe Rice will surely be out of the league when this Rocket's team peaks but they can be replaced). But that is a lot of "ifs" and we just have to see what happens.
