People really hate Rafer. I don't think Rafer is the problem so much as Rafer playing 40+ minutes per game with no decent back up is the problem. Personally, I don't care who starts or comes off the bench between Mike James and Rafer, I'm just glad we won't have to have Rafer playing 40+ minutes every night, and especially on the nights he's particularly bad. but yeah, saying he's more expendable than a guy who, as of yet, hasn't even been able to find his way on to the court seems just a tad bit ridiculous.
the fact that rafer is valuable to us, means he is valuable to some other team. i rather not have rafer and have a pf than having rafer and hayes/landry as pf. vspan contract is only worth 3 mill, rafer contract is worth 5 mill, plus we can add bob contract. rafer and bob makes 8 mill, so we can get someone like camby.
I really do not see why so many people think Spanoulis is more expendable than Head or especially Alston in Adelman's system. This is no longer the Jeff Van Gundy Rockets. This is the Rick Adelman Rockets. Rick Adelman does not like point guards that are offensively challenged like Alston or offensively inept like Head. On the other hand he values point guards like Lucas, Brooks, James, and especially like Spanoulis. He does like pure shooters like Head though. To me this is more than obvious that Alston is the odd one out. Also keep in mind that many are stereotyping that Adelman does not value D. Not true at all. He's a very defense oriented coach. Luther Head and John Lucas are horrible defenders. Absolutely horrible. But Jeff Van Gundy played them more than Spanoulis because Spanoulis is a dribble penetration guard. Well believe it or not offensive coaches like Adelman want dribble penetration guards. Think about it for a second. Would these guards have actually played more than Spanoulis with Adelman coaching?
Honestly, I don't even know what you're basing this all off of. Scouting reports? Summer league? His garbage time minutes? All I know about Spanoulis is he wasn't good enough to get on the court when all we had playing point guard was Alston. I don't care who our coach is, that's sad.
damn our fans seeem so divided on this topic..103 for v-span and 102 for rafer...TRADE V-SPAN..it seems like alot of teams are on the verge of making splashes...come one rox lets get it going
I posted this in another thread, I believe this is how general managers should evaluate roster decisions, based on data extrapolations and true bayesian equations, based on this there should be no doubt that Spanoulis is a superior prospect to the other young guards Lucas, Brooks, Snyder. I believe that in order for teams to be successful they have to make personnel decisions in this manner like San Antonio did with Parker and Ginobili. I have also done several in-depth stats analysis computations and it shows that with the same amount of PT for Spanouis last year that Rafer Alston received, Spanoulis would have had a better personal plus/minus ratio, a higher efficiency rating, a higher hockey plus/minus rating (The so-called "Larry Bird stat"), and also a higher PER than Rafer Alston, John Lucas, and Luther Head. Also John Lucas and Mike James would be higher than James and Alston and Head. I have also done several in depth computations that showed that Spanoulis is a very superior one on one defender to Alston, Head, Lucas and a superior team defender to all three as well. I have computed that James/Spanoulis/Brooks is the best combo at point guard from several stats and metrics points, because Brooks had superior college stats to Lucas and on defense he rates out much better to Lucas as well as on metrics data. This means IMO Luther Head should remain a backup SG, John Lucas should be traded, and Rafer Alston should be traded as well, with Spanoulis being kept to be the 2nd string point guard and Brooks signed as the 3rd string point guard. Hopefully our stats guru GM understands this as well. Spanoulis and Brooks would then eventually supplant the 32 year old Mike James. From another thread: "Just out of curiosity did you watch the part of the draft where the ESPN overseas scout said that in Europe the competition is mostly at or below the division I college level, but that in Italy, Spain, and Greece it is above that level, even the NBDL level and especially this is so in the Greek league? I didn't know that was true, but the announcers even said something like, "Bellineli is from Italy and that really means something because that's near the NBA" and the scout said something like, "especially there and in Spain and in Greece." Looking at that, and that Spanoulis finished 7th in the FIBA international player of the year award for his first season in Euroleague, which is the year before he joined the Rockets don't you think being the 7th best player internationally as a rookie and playing against slightly below NBA level means something? He had better stats than Rudy Fernandez or Belineli have and better stats than Ginobili had in his last year and was playing in the highest level or apparently even higher than they were. I checked some Euro forums and it seems Italy is 3rd, Spain is 2nd and Greece the toughest league, some people saying NBA scouts put it at 80-90 percent of NBA quality where they put division I NCAA majors at 40 percent of NBA and NBDL at about 70 to 75 percent. Summer League NBA at about 50-60 percent. Now, I would think that Spanoulis making all Euroleague team and being 10th in MVP voting and being 7th in international voting as a rookie there would mean something then. If Aaron Brooks can be a first round pick in a very strong draft, and he was coming from competition half as good as Spanoulis faced, and would anyone argue Aaron Brooks was the 7th best college player? So why would Brooks be ahead of Spanoulis in the Rockets' plans then? Is that logical? Anthony Parker in fact then now as I have researched it was playing in a very inferior league to what Spanoulis played in, not even considered close. He did fairly well in Toronto, and again he came from inferior level competition as to what Spanoulis did. Garbajosa came from similar level competiton and he was 2nd team all Euro like Spanoulis and he did fairly well in Toronto. Keep in mind Spanoulis was a Euro rookie and already better than them as he finished 7th in the international player award, which super cedes the MVP award. I just found this out from research as well, something fans in America apparently don't know, I didn't. Parker didn't even make the list. Because this factors in the level of competition between the various national leagues like say France and Greece. It's like in college a mid-major versus a major. Again, Spanoulis did this as a rookie. FIBA rated him higher than Boris Diaw or Tony Parker. Think about that. I think he has accomplished more then already as a professional player than Luther Head, John Lucas III, Kirk Snyder, or Aaron Brooks as a fact. Whether some fans want to acknowledge that or not is really irrelevant. You could even argue being the 7th best international player as a rookie is more noteworthy than anything Rafer Alston has done so far as a professional player, as in being in the 20-25 best point guard range in the NBA. If Spanoulis was playing against 80-90 percent the level of NBA competition. Let's assume Alston is the 20th best NBA point guard, and let's assume Greek league is 80 percent as hard as the NBA, then that would put Alston as around the 16th best point guard in that same level of high Euroleague, while Spanoulis was rated as the 3rd best point guard in that level? Tony Parker rated 4th. So is it logical then to just assume Alston would be better over there than Spanoulis or that Spanoulis cannot be as good as Alston because the NBA is so "superior" to Greece? Or what about that Tony Delk took Spanoulis' spot on his old team and wasn't even half the player Spanoulis was and really was a scrub there? Does that imply that Spanoulis did nothing becase that Greek league is so lame? It certainly shows to me that using logical extrapolations it can be deducted that Spanoulis is superior to Brooks and Lucas and Head and has already proven it on the court with both his Greek play and his international competiton play. Look what they did in college at a level half as good, they were not even as good as Spanoulis was in Greece, against competitions twice as tough. Also it seems that from what I have been looking at, Olympic and World Championship medal rounds are considered 80-90 percent to some times almost even to NBA competition and certainly that is true when playing against the US team. Is it logical to just argue "one fluke game" when in truth all the other point guards on the team have never even had one "fluke" game where they outplayed players like Hinrich, Wade, Paul, all at once? I mean is it just always the Carlos Arroyo or Sarunas comparison in reality? Because Spanoulis did it in the medal round and won. Isn't that like comparing a first round playoff loss for Sarunas or exhibiton win for Arroyo something like that to like an NBA final wi or conference final win for Spanoulis? Doesn't the circumstance and situation and motivation of the other team as well as the result matter more? Or does this only matter in the NBA? I know, "he sucked the next game." Why is it not considered that he gave it all to beat the US? Or again does that effect only occur in the NBA? Yeah but that one game in the Finals Karl Malone was what 1-16 or something like that? That super cedes everything you know. So don't you think it would be wise and prudent for the Rockets to actually use logic when deciding who the point guards should be rather than just say, "he's from Greece he must stink." I admit I didn't realize how high the level is in Greece, but now after researching it and realizing that it's twice the level that guys like Lucas, Brooks, and Head come from, and that Spanoulis was also better in Greece than James and Alston were in college or James was in Europe against lesser competition, then it really is strong empirical evidence to me IMO that in fact Spanoulis is a superior prospect and talent to any of them. So I ask you, do you even consider things like this at all? Would you expect a general manager to consider them?"
I prefer potential over guaranteed suckage. Just to clarify V-Span shot a better percentage of 2pt shots than Rafer for the season. I don't think that guarantees anything but I just think Rafer is awful, and would rather he leave the team...ASAP. If they both go, and the Rockets are better, I am fine with that too. DD
The Greek league has computed out very high, highest level other than the NBA. There is a huge array of levels in Europe. I just did a calculation last night, and I discovered that it is actually harder to average 15 points a game in Greek League than it is to average 15 points a game in the NBA. This is why Papaloukas is being valued by the NBA, he is clearly the best European player based on metrics data. Also based on this data Spanoulis is vastly superior to Langdan, Anthony Parker, Tony Delk, Casey Jacobsen, Tyus Edney, and a host of other American players. It seems that American fans have greatly underestimated the level in Greece. NBDL is quite below Greece for example. Spanoulis came out higher on the metrics and stats evaluations I did than Alston, based on comparing Spanoulis in Greece to Alston in NBDL. Anthony Parker and Jorge Garbajosa played decently in the NBA this past year. Spanoulis came out higher across the board in all the stats equations I did to Parker, and just a bit higher than Garbajosa on stats, but using metrics and a bayesian calculation he came out superior to Garbajosa as well. Keep in mind this is based on Spanoulis playing as a rookie in Euroleague, none of the others were rookies. Spanoulis rated out higher than Ginobili in case anyone wonders. I am sure Morey is well aware of this. It is much much higher than NCAA Division I majors in Greek league as far as competition levl.
He's not an NBA caliber guy. What has he done to make you think that he is? He's just like Macijauskas and Jasikevicius. They were great overseas, but can't do it here. Rafer is a very solid NBA backup PG. He can't shoot consistently, but there's no doubting that he can run a team. You don't win 52 games with a starting pg who plays 37.1 mpg that is "guaranteed suckage."
Spartan will be back in Rockets unis next season. Oh and, i figured it out that Adelman likes working and been successfully utilizing all this european players. Hopefully he can ge the Vspan on the roll!
Rafer then maybe Luther are in my opinion the most expendable. V-Span was given the hook for any slight screw up on the court with the short sighted and untrusting JVG. No matter how bad Rafer and sometimes Luther stunk it up they always new that they would never get the hook from Gollums short rotation. Rafer and Luther were undressed in the playoffs for their inability to attack the basket and both lacking a mid-range game. Let James, Brooks and V-Span fight it out for minutes and use Luther and Alston in some type of deal to get them a veteran PF.
Then why does he suck so much on the NBA court? People forget the fact that after Snyder was injured, Spanoulis was inserted into the rotation, given regular minutes for about 10 games, and flopped horribly. It's not like we haven't seen him play significant minutes, because he has, and he sucked. Normally I like statistical analysis in sports, but it's easy to see where the danger lies, and it lies right here. Our eyes tell us Spanoulis is terrible, but you seemingly have stats that say otherwise. I'd compare this to the case of Beno Udrih, who Hollinger touted for years using his number crunching as a very productive player to whom the Spurs should give more minutes. Well guess what, after 4 years in the NBA he still sucks, proving clearly that he is incapable of being a competent backup PG, and this year losing his role to JACQUE VAUGHN. At best Spanoulis might be Udrih. At worst he is out of the NBA by October and never sniffs it again.
This is pretty much exactly what my stats analysis has shown. I have full confidence that Morey has already done the very advanced number crunching on this and that Adelman has already evaluated that Spanoulis fits his system better. I see no reason why they would have not informed Spanoulis of this.
Slight screwup? Any time he got any kind of minutes, he was a turnover machine. If JVG didn't pull him, I would have had a problem.
If they love Spanoulis so much, then explain to me why they traded for M. James and then drafted Brooks, two moves which will take away Spanoulis's role entirely, even if Rafer is traded? Clearly Adelman/Morey don't think much of Spanoulis.
The Aaron Brooks pick and no Span on the summer league team do not bode well for Billy being on the team next year. If you believe what Adelman and Morey say about Brooks and his speed and "NBA shots", then Lucas is a better fit for what they want.
