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a study in pork...we don't need any more muslims! gimme some hog, DAMNIT!

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by verse, Oct 29, 2001.

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  1. BuckeyeRocketFan

    BuckeyeRocketFan Member

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    OK, what skills should we evaluate? I want to try and stick to the god given tangible stuff, so let's try hops, handle, quicks, size on a scale of 1-10

    Hops Handle Quicks Size Total
    Stevie 10 8 8 5 31
    Cat 7 9 10 6 32
    EG 10 7 7 8 32

    Now, that is a quick look. What else raw talent wise, goes into being a superstar? And do I have these guys rated about right related to the rest of the NBA? I'm open to debate on this.

    So on raw physical talent, I think Cat and EG have the edge for superstardom.

    What else goes into becoming a superstar? The initangibles like leadership, court vision, drive, luck, shooting skill (here because it can be improved with work), creativity, craving for pork. What else am I missing?

    So let me bottom line the last couple of posts for you IMO. Any one of the three can become the superstar. Cat and EG have advantages in position and talent. Franchise appeared to have more of the intangibles coming into the league. The question is who will three years from now?

    What do you think? Am I out in left field?
     
    #61 BuckeyeRocketFan, Oct 30, 2001
  2. verse

    verse Member

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    well, of the three, i'd say the post position (griffin) - hands down.

    it's easiest to dominate when you can consistently draw a double team. as a coach, the last thing you want to do is double team the opposing player.

    a guard (steve or cuttino)? no way i double team. i'd let him score 55 and shut down everyone else before i double teamed them and opened the floodgates for the catos, thomases, rices, etc. to get hot.

    a post? sheesh. you hate to do it, but if you don't double team, not only could he obliterate you for 45+ w/15+ boards, he can also get your posts in foul trouble. the odds of a post player having a ridiculously high scoring game, IMO, are much greater than that of a guards, simply because of their proximity to the rim and their physical ability to outpower 4/5s of the people on the court. once you double that post player, as we saw with hakeem the dream, the other fringe players get a chance to shoot wide open jumpers and make a name for themselves.

    so, position wise, i'd say that griffin has the greatest chance to become a superstar.

    point guard superstars:

    magic
    zeke

    that's it, in my book.

    dominant post superstars:

    wilt
    russel
    olajuwon
    mikan
    abdul jabbar
    shaq


    sure, there are other "star" posts, but i'm listing "dominant champion superstars" that changed the game.


    it takes a 1)seriously talented, 2) physically gifted, and 3) mentally superior guard to be a "dominant champion superstar".

    i question #3 with most guards (point or sg), including cat & steve.
     
    #62 verse, Oct 30, 2001
  3. backwardhead

    backwardhead Member

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    I think insidehoops said it best in their preview
    I agree with your assessment pretty much but I don't think its those attributes you've listed which really make that much of a difference with regards to superstardom. It's rarely the most physically gifted player who is the best player on the team, or the teams leader. Jordan isn't Jordan because of his speed or his size or handle or any of that. Cat would rank higher than Jordan in all of those categories, except maybe size. But Jordan's got a will to win and a concentration on his objective which is just inhuman. Tiger Woods is the same way. He gets behind and he just gets more focused. It seems to me that Steve is this way and once he feels ready he's gonna explode. But it seems that for him it's a matter of steps. Whereas Cat seems much less methodical in his game, much more instinctive. I think one day those two are gonna make people forget about Isiah(?) and Dumars. :eek:
     
    #63 backwardhead, Oct 30, 2001
  4. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Member

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    That is what I said a year ago, and everyone goes wha, waa, too early to say that.....
     
    #64 ROXRAN, Oct 30, 2001
  5. verse

    verse Member

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    AB-SO-LOOOOOT-LEEE!


    for Matrix fans....


    Cuttino Mobley is Morpheous (L. Fishburne)

    Steve Francis is Neo (K. Reaves)
     
    #65 verse, Oct 30, 2001
  6. verse

    verse Member

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    :eek:

    how did i go from "pork" to "fish"?

    :eek:

    i digress...
     
    #66 verse, Oct 30, 2001
  7. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    Actually you and others should know The Cat will say anything to defame a person who isn't a sunshine ass 100% of the time

    Really? Here's some threads where I'm not exactly being a "sunshine ass". Somewhat throws your argument out the window...

    http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12034
    http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11633
    http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10745
    http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/show...ity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21723

    Also, some quotes from those recaps:

    One game Cuttino Mobley looks like an inexperienced jack-happy guard who frustrates fans with what seems to be countless isolation shots, and the next he's looking like the guard of the future.

    Mo Taylor was 10-13 for 24 big points, but I've been harsh on Cat and he had a big game tonight against Vince Carter, going mano a mano in the third quarter to boot. Made 6 of his last 7 shots.    (where you admit to it)

    One night he frustrates the hell out of you and the next he looks like a future All-Star.

    Are they negative? No. But Steve Francis has looked very inexperienced at times too, but we never hear it about him...

    With that said, you can dismiss me as a Mobley hater now, as you do with anyone else who breathes a non ass-kissing word about Cuttino.

    Such as who?

    Lest we forget all those who took abuse for calling him on his guarantee we'd make the playoffs last season.

    Last I checked, I'm not responsible for Bill Kennedy's actions.
     
    #67 The Cat, Oct 30, 2001
  8. Mo Diggity Dawg

    Mo Diggity Dawg Member

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    MY BOY VERSE!!

    Now you know i had to brush off the keyboard,
    and put down my BACON AND HAM sammich...

    I think the subject of Stevie becoming Boss Hog has become a talk about everything from Fish Sticks to Anal Lube!!
    Now to put this BACK on track i want to first say whats up to my man VERSE, and thanks for putting the season off to a GREAT start.

    Second, the reason that Steve must be the Pork Chop comsumer is because of the simple fact that of the two (Steve and Cat) HE MAKES THE TEAM BETTER!! You can debate for hours about how only a small amount of point guards have produced Championship ring measurements to be taken, but Steve is truely the...ONE!!

    I can only think of 2 men that truely broke the mold on being one a point guard, and two a Champion.....Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas. Steve is this type of POINT GUARD, because NO ONE has seen anything like him. IMO i think Steve COULD average a triple double, and that is what he brings to the game night in and out. The only thing that he is missing is the balance between being the man, and being a point guard. Ike and Magic went through the same troubles, but Johnson is #2 all-time in assists and Thomas was ALWAYS in the top 10 in the league. When he finds the line, and becomes the MAN...the Rockets will be in a position to take it all.

    Now the CAT...
    No team can win without a 1-2 punch on offense, and the Rockets will have to adhere to this fact. If Cat can handle being the 2nd scorer (Joe D. or Pip), and Steve has a HOG in his life than with the vet play of Rice and new star-to-be Eddie the only thing to worry about is the Dynasty in LA...
     
    #68 Mo Diggity Dawg, Oct 30, 2001
  9. SmeggySmeg

    SmeggySmeg Member

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    Cat,

    don't forget Clutch loves to make one post and then disappear.

    Smeg
     
    #69 SmeggySmeg, Oct 30, 2001
  10. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
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    Wow, thanks for proving to us you hate Francis and Shandon (which isn't news by the way). Didn't take a wizard to figure that out. But if you want to throw out my argument because I threw out yours, I'm cool with that. My whole point was to defend myself from your unprovoked attempt at discrediting anything I say in the recap about Mobley (as if an AP recap would include fan opinions, much less ones you would accept against your grain).

    <strong>That is exactly how I feel about Cuttino Mobley.</strong> I made that perfectly clear in my last response. What do you want? For me to ignore everything Cuttino does that frustrates me and feed you 100% rah rah Cuttino garbage? I root for Mobley and hope he scores 40 a night, and I think he gets better all the time, but I shouldn't have to ignore boneheaded or selfish things he (or any player) has done just because you want me to.

    Uh, admit to what? Read it in context -- Mobley was 16 of <strong>50</strong> from the field in the previous 3 games, and I pointed out his poor shooting/slump in all three. That's all.

    Same as the first.

    You made the same kind of blanket accusation before, without doing research. Read the recaps.... they aren't all sunshine about Francis. While you're at it, look for some posts by you that are evenly critical of Collier, Mo and Cuttino as you are of Francis and Shandon.

    Such as anyone who is critical of Mobley (or Taylor, or Collier). Again, this isn't new.

    How unbelievably thin can you get. We all agree it was a lame call, but it wasn't a guarantee the Rockets were going to win (they were down 7 and coming back), and the Rockets finished the season needing to have won <strong>3 more games</strong> than they did to make your "guarantee". No dice.

    Exactly an hour and a half after Cat's post on the afternoon of a work Halloween party and the night of the Rockets <strong>season opener</strong>, and I'm suddenly dodging this thread? Nice. I can't respond to every post as, maybe you haven't noticed, I do have some work here outside the board. I know you've never been one to contribute intelligent thought to the BBS there Smegma, but come a little stronger than this preschool attempt next time.
     
    #70 Clutch, Oct 30, 2001
  11. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    Wow, thanks for proving to us you hate Francis and Shandon (which isn't news by the way).

    Huh? I love Steve Francis-- wear his jersey to every game, cheer for him, the whole bit. I just don't think he's flawless, as many of you seem to, and I don't think he's head and shoulders above our other star. In fact, I think he's the top PG in the NBA.

    That is exactly how I feel about Cuttino Mobley. I made that perfectly clear in my last response. What do you want?

    I understand that. But Steve Francis does many things that deserve similar responses, and I don't see them as frequently, or at least I don't remember them.

    While you're at it, look for some posts by you that are evenly critical of Collier, Mo and Cuttino as you are of Francis and Shandon.

    You know my style by now Clutch. I defend players that are being unfairly criticized a lot, and when around here does Steve get that kind of treatment that Cat, Mo, and Collier get? He's treated like a god around here. Shandon, imho, was given too much credit.

    Such as anyone who is critical of Mobley (or Taylor, or Collier). Again, this isn't new.

    If it's not new, you should be able to think of an example.

    How unbelievably thin can you get. We all agree it was a lame call, but it wasn't a guarantee the Rockets were going to win (they were down 7 and coming back), and the Rockets finished the season needing to have won 3 more games than they did to make your "guarantee". No dice.

    I think the Rockets would've won about 5 more games if not for that call. The Rockets probably would've won, imho, because they had all the momentum. It was all in their favor. But that loss stopped a huge run from the Rockets, including a win over the Spurs, and to me it just killed all the momentum we had in that game and the season. IMHO, we would've beaten the Sonics and Clips for the last two games of that road trip had we kept the run going. Bill Kennedy took away the chance.
     
    #71 The Cat, Oct 30, 2001
  12. AstroRocket

    AstroRocket Member

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    After Steve's last two dominating performances (esp in OT) have any of you guys' opinions changed on this matter?


    Stevie Franchise, Straight Hog Baby!! :D
     
    #72 AstroRocket, Nov 2, 2001
  13. verse

    verse Member

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    AstroRocket:


    damnit! i came to work early to make that exact point and you beat me to it! :mad: ;)

    i hope people can see the difference in how steve francis has been playing the first two games of this season versus how he played his whole career. notice....there's no questions and/or arguments about mooch, mobley, or whoever and what they should have done with their crucial clutch shot. that's steve's responsibility. those are HIS shots if he wants them. even on the defensive end, he has become a difference maker in crucial moments.

    he is strapping on his oinker! i love it!

    my thing is that people here have - at times - ridden steve's jock a little too hard. i said before - at the midpoint of last season - that i thought he was the best pg in the nba and backed it up.

    that said, i don't think he was even 50% of what he could be, and that's why i made this post. it's ALMOST inconceivable that someone could be the best in the nba, but not even be the hog on his team...but that's what it has been.

    steve, in these first two games, is becoming DOMINANT. MVP dominant, in fact.

    look for the rockets to have one helluva season. especially once the outside shots start falling!
     
    #73 verse, Nov 2, 2001
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