I came back from vacation to find this thread, in which a poster calling himself Q8 Rocket leveled a long list of charges against Israel. Many of you replied to the thread, debating the propriety of Q8's opinions. You needn't bother with his opinions. You can simply ignore his posts from now on, because he's a baldfaced liar. The list of lies he told you is too long to go through completely right now. I simply took the most easily checkable statement in his first post and checked it out. Here is the statement: "As facts speak for themselves, the Jewish newspaper (Haratez) reported that 305 Palestinian children have been deliberately infected with the Aids virus in Israeli hospitals in January 1997." Unfortunately for Q8, I happen to know the Head of the News Division at Ha'aretz. I wrote to him yesterday asking whether this statement is true. Here is his reply: "No - we didn't publish a piece claiming that Palestinian children were deliberately infected with Aids in Israeli hospitals. We didn't - because it's not true. If there's anybody willing to believe such nonsense, I'm not even sure its worth your time to try and convince him. you'll probably fail." There are no shades of gray about this. Either Ha'aretz ran the story or it didn't. Q8 says it did. Ha'aretz says it didn't. That leaves only two possibilities. One is that Q8 made it up. The other is that somebody else made it up, and Q8 is so careless, gullible, and contemptuous of everyone on this BBS that he passed along a malicious and incredible statement to you -- which of course turned out to be a fabrication -- as truth. And if you can't believe what he says about something that can be checked this easily, imagine what BS he's feeding you about stuff that's harder to check. I'll leave it to BrianKagy, who is obviously itching to ban Q8, whether to do so. If he doesn't, I'd ask each of you to do the following. Any time Q8 posts on this BBS, one of us should post a note below him with the word "LIAR" and a link to this thread.
Will, I am sorry you even had to waste your time even writing to find out if Q8 is a liar. IT IS ALL PROPOGANDA. Thing is, people underestimate Americans. It takes a lot more to get us to change our opinions. We don't believe every little piece of crap we read. Q8 is a victim of his own upbringing.. he probably studied from history books that were rewritten to spread the propaganda to young kids. If not, I really pity him. I say don't ban him, everyone needs to learn to recognize truths from lies and how to respond to them.
I don't know Will. I think it's all propaganda too, but that story about the 305 Palestinian children is pasted all over the web--although I found the newspaper in question to be: Yediott Ahronott Certainly, he can be reprimanded for getting the newspaper wrong...and certainly he could be reprimanded (by some) for believing the story in the first place, but I doubt he's being any more reactionary than you are in this thread.
I still don't think he's done anything worse than others that haven't been called out like that by, now 2, administrators.
Oh yeah...before I get my own butt in trouble (and not admitting that I believe any of this) http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/199803/19980311.6.html http://www.fav.net/aidsInfection.htm
Will, at the least, caught him in spreading misinformation if not outright lying. Misattributing a source is a serious breach of integrity.
I was about to respond to haven, and then I caught myself. Like BK, Will, haven, and many others, I'm part of the problem here. We're all giving this issue one hell of a lot more coverage than it deserves. my apologies
I still don't think, I mean I still think people just want to save money like that by, now 2, administrators.
You did not "find" the newspaper in question to be Yediott Ahronott. According to the links you provided, you "found" a couple of web pages -- one of which calls itself "a project of learning and enlightenment," the other of which calls itself "Your Voice in a World where Zionism, Steel, and Fire have Turned Justice Mute" -- that printed two different descriptions (not even the alleged text) of an article that is attributed to two different newspapers. One says "End of Yediott Ahronott's article," the other says "End of story from Al-Ahram." Neither of these web pages actually links to the alleged article. You defend Q8 by saying that the lie he used is "pasted all over the web," as though pasting something conspiratorial and implausible all over the web -- without linking to the article that's described -- makes it credible. I'm sure there are dozens of hateful web pages claiming that articles in this or that newspaper four or five years ago show that the Pope and his stooge Catholic politicians in the United States are perpetrating absurd crimes like injecting Protestant children with AIDS. You describe Q8's transgression as merely "getting the newspaper wrong." You call me "reactionary" for pointing out that he casually passed along a false charge of mass murder and that this is a despicable and self-discrediting thing to do. I've respected you as long as you've been here, Pole. But I encourage you to think long and hard about what you've written. Don't tell me that we're all "part of the problem." Lying is the problem. Lying about the mass murder of children is an outrage. And calling people "reactionary" for exposing this outrage -- as though there's no such thing as truth, and maybe the Pope is a mass murderer of children or maybe he isn't, and you have no responsibility to verify such horrible accusations when passing them along -- is a species of nihilism that's beneath you.
This is the "article" in question. Whether its real or made-up, I don't know, but its supposedly attributed to an Egyptian newspaper. Q8 Rocket also did not get the newspaper wrong -- his source got the newspaper wrong. His source appears to be the Palestinian Information Center. (you can find this by doing a Yahoo search on search "Haratez" and "AIDS") The link: http://www.palestine-info.com/press_clipping/pal-children2.htm Is the validity of the source in question? Hell yes. But if you were Kuwaiti, would you believe an Israeli source when you've been told all your life that THEY engage in propaganda or would you trust the sources from your own government and its allies? Is he misinformed? Hell yeah. Is he a "baldfaced liar"? That's just silly if you're using liar in the negative connotation (as though he's purposely lying). We assume what we get from CNN or the UK news is pretty much accurate -- and certainly not propaganda if inaccurate. Jeff posted a CNN article that said the anthrax was most likely American-sourced. If that turns out wrong, is Jeff a baldfaced liar? Why wouldn't Q8 believe his own country's news sources? http://www.fav.net/aidsInfection.htm <I>(from the Egyptian 'Al-Ahram': January 22, 1997) A New Crime: Israel Injects 305 Palestinian Children with the AIDS Virus Jerusalem-news agencies: The Israeli daily 'Yediott Ahronott' Uncovered a heinous crime committed by the Israeli authorities, with the injection of some of the children of the uprising of the stones, in the West Bank and Gaza, with the AIDS virus. The paper admitted that cases have been registered for 305 Palestinian children infected with the AIDS virus during different stages of their treatment for regular illnesses, in hospitals supervised by Israeli occupation authorities. The paper also mentioned that lawyers apologized for not being able to sue the Israeli government to guardians of some of the infected children, allegedly because the peace agreements signed between the Palestinians and the Israelis forbid any lawsuits against the government of Israel for crimes committed during its period of administering the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Commenting on this new crime, Dr. Mufeed Shuhaab, the president Of Cairo University and the Committee on Arab Affairs & National Security in the parliament, said that if the truth of this incident was established, then we're right before a crime against humanity that doesn't expire with the passage of time. Any agreements to the contrary have no effect. Dr. Shuhaab also explained that the [Palestinian-Israeli] agreement can only deal with the routine and daily operation of the [Palestinian National Authority] administration. It should be implemented in accordance with the law and is to be legitimate, just like the running of the territories by the occupation administration. Shuhaab emphasized that not the Oslo Agreement, or any other, can deprive the Palestinians from undertaking lawsuits if their truth is proven. He described the crime as "ugly", and one which is condemnable by international convention, and international principles. (End of story from Al-Ahram) If you can read Arabic, we've also found an article related to the AIDS story on the Arabic Al-Shabakah which comes out of Australia. Go to http://www.countrylink.com/arabnet/editor/aids.htm </I>
Will, I think you should not have gone with the confirmed liar headline. I appreciate your service of correcting the facts on this extreme accusation. I had tried briefly to confirm or deny his aid accusations, but did not keep at it. By forcefully correcting the error in the facts you were sufficient to discredit Q8 Rocket. However, as you said before he could just be stupidly believing noncredible sources. This doesn't make him a liar. Nor by the way, does it disprove the other atrocities he listed. Many people believe highly noncredible accusations circulated on the web and on videotape by Jerry Falwell and others regarding numerous murders by Clinton in Arkansas etc. Except for the original perpetrators of these rumors I wouldn't call those who believe and cite these supposed crimes as "confirmed liars". Would you? I still think that the extreme reaction of many on this board is due to the fact that Q 8 Rocket claims to be an Arab living in the Middle East. On a certain level is it so surprising that an Arab college student would hold these views? Many of the noncritical defenders of Sharon and Israel always start by saying you can't negotiate with the Palestinians since Arabs will not be satisfied until the Jews are driven into the sea. While I don't think that this is true, is it really that surprising then that we have one Arab who holds that position? Instead of responding with near hysteria, why don't you ask him to verify his source and try to appeal to him on a factual basis? You don't know until you try if that will be effective. Who knows? Maybe you just have a gullible Kuwaiti college student and you can even moderate his views. Mere namecalling is unlikely to moderate his views.
True Glynch, then we can all build a camp fire and sit down to a nice rousing rendition of c*m Ba Yaa. DaDakota
shanna, there is no use. This isn't about lying, misinformation, spam, trolling, negativity or any of that other stuff. The reason this guy is being put through the wringer is because he has dared imply that Isreal has commited wrongs. This issue has fast become he most devisive issue on this board and I can see only one way to solve it. Clutch, Jeff, Will, BrianKagy...somebody needs to shut down all these threads. This, at its heart, is a Rockets BBS and not the place to debate the horrible situation that is the middle east. Most of the posters here are a deadly combination of misinformation and stuborness. The tragedy has brought out most everybody's opinion on this matter and lets face it most of them stink. I'm not excluding myself from this either, I know how dumbass and stubborn I can be at times. Trust me I have an ex-wife who reminds me at every opportunity. If someone else has any ideas (not to include banning or "just admit we're right and alls cool") than please enlighten us. Lets get back to rooting for the home team and get away from all this political ****!
HTown, This is the HANG out portion of the BBS and is EXACTLY the place to discuss ideas and differences in opinion. Heck, I may not like what Glynch writes or says, but at least I believe that he is an intelligent man who makes me think about my beliefs. If you can not question your own beliefs and become stronger in them, then you are a fool. I love intelligent discourse, if you, or anyone else does not like the debates that go on here, just don't read them. DaDakota
