I mean shane battier was obviously a great pick up for us and helped out in the stretch but there is only so much he can do. We need a guy who can create his own shot and penetrate. If we can get that type of player like Rashard or Artest (I wish), it should be a no-brainer.
To me it's this type of thinking that clearly illustrates how desperate things ahve gotten around here. So you're willing to accept virtually anything if you believe it will help you win? Noticed I italicized the word believe because this belief and what would actually happen are two distinct things. First of all, the notion that Artest is enough to put us over the top is faulty in and of itself. He's not going to make us competitive at the PG or PF spots (our two most glaring weaknesses) as he's a SF. Worse, he plays the same position as does Battier & Tmac meaning that we'll have created a nice logjam at the 3 for playing time. What's that you say? We can trade Battier for the PG we need? OK, then we are left completely dependent on the unstable mind of Ron Artest (and the voices he listens to from up there) not to mention the fact that we lose all of the good little and big things Battier does for us on defense. I won't go into the issue of basketball intelligence and character because it would be a moot point. Is this worth risking your entire season on? Not to me. Second, I question the logic that says that in order to win, the Rockets have to start signing players with major issues. Specifically I'm talking about Wells and Artest. Let's say we have the both of them next year. Are we now insrtantly better than SA? Dallas? Phoenix? I don't think so and mainly because those teams have players who have invested in their team and are committed to winning. Just look at the Spurs and how they are going about their business in the playoffs - all the players acting together as one with a single goal. They didn't have to gamble on nut jobs or resort to shortcuts or taking chances on head cases because they are smart enough to do things the right way (which is something that still escapes the clowns running the show in Houston). All they do is just go out and find good/great players who WANT to play for San Antonio. Simple as that. And that's why they are going after 4th title in 9 years while the Rockets are watching on TV. AGAIN. This does not describe Bonzi Wells who clearly showed you last season that all he cared about was the money he foolishly threw away last year. He couldn't give a rat's ass about Houston or the Rockets or fans like you. He just wants to get paid, period. Artest is simply in it because it's all he knows what to do (the rap album didn't do all that well). His little meltdown in Detroit nearly ended his access to making big money while playing a game so he's had to cool it and try to fit in with the normal folks but as the domestic violence incident shows, the urge to snap is there just below the surface waiting to erupt at any time. He also wouldn't care one whit about the Rockets or the city of Houston or fans like yourself who have invested a little bit of themselves in the team they love. You can go ahead and make your deal with the devil but remember this: When you dance with the devil, the devil don't change. The devil changes YOU.
Juwan Howard Height: 6-9 Weight: 253 lbs. Chuck Hayes Height: 6-6 Weight: 238 lbs. Just for fun Carlos Boozer Height: 6-9 / Weight: 266 lbs. Ron Artest Height: 6-7 Weight: 260 lbs. Artest can play PF. He has the size and strength. Not saying I want him but im tired of people acting like he isnt capable of playing there. Its the same with TMac. TMac is a SG, TMac is a SG. Well guess what, TMac can play the 3 just as efficiently as the 2. People put too much enfaces on position.
Artest is NOT a Power Forward. He definitely is not the type of Power Forward that the rockets need to play alongside of Yao Ming. Artest is an agressive player who can play and has the professional feel for the game of Basketball. He is a player who can turn a soft team into a spirited one, determined to go for the Championship. His best position is that of Small Forward. If he was on the Rockets team he would play this position while Tracy McGrady would play Shooting Guard. Battier is a good slow methodical player who mostly contributes to the team by doing many of the small things not undertaken by others. He could become expendable under Coach A's uptempo scenario, but only if he is used to bring us a player or players who can play the game, these players should be athletic, strong and determined on winning and ones who will submit to the will of Coach A. If they are not available Battier should stay until the right player or players are a vailable. The Rockets can no longer just be a 'NICE'team with 'NICE'players. It has to become a force to be reconned with.
It's not about the body, it's about the performance. Where does a player play his best? Hayes is an inch shorter and twenty pounds lighter, but he's way more suited for the PF position than Artest is. Just because Artest is as tall as Barkley and weighs the same doesn't mean he can perform the same way; he's a SF. You wouldn't want Nowitski as your center, you wouldn't want Brent Barry as your SF, and you wouldn't even want Shaun Livingston as your SG. They're not suited for those positions, even if other players with similar bodies are excellent at those positions.
Eddie Griffin was over valued by this board? I must have gone into a coma for a few months. But that is an interesting comparison considering for Battier's career he averages a whopping 3 ppg more than Griffin and fewer rebs/game. Mobley? Over valued? Not sure how you figure this. Mobley was a 2nd round pick who will make $9.8m in the final year of his current contract. Battier? A #6 overall pick who is basically on an MLE level contract. Here's an interesting piece of Battier trivia. He made the Rookie Challenge team as a Rookie and wasn't even selected to play in his sophomore NBA season...now there's a real difficult feat. I'll bet someone needs an arsenal of intangibles to only be selected once to the Rookie Challenge Game. Van Gundy didn't put Battier in position to win? Battier was in the same basic position he was in all season...standing perfectly still in the corner of the 3 point arc. But, as far as what Battier will fetch in a trade? I sure as hell hope it's closer to what you think than what I think. The Rockets gave up the upside potential of Rudy Gay and didn't even have the balls to demand Memphis' #24 pick...that's the level of value they need to get when they trade him to come anywhere near what they lost in opportunity cost.
The difference in the examples you have shown is that each player has a distinct weakness at the position of interest. Artest doesn’t. He has the size, strength, athleticism and skills to play the 4. If you for one second think that Hayes would produce better at the 4 than Artest then there is no reason to carry this conversation on. There is no sane way you can think that Hayes could be any better than Artest at any phase of the game, offensively, defensively or at any position. One of the reasons that Artest is considered such a valuable player is because of his versatility. He is capable of playing SG, SF and PF. Im not saying he should be our PF either just taht he would be better than anyone we currently have. Would it be better to play him at SF? Yes! He can and does have what it takes to play the 4 however. This isnt the 80s anymore. All 4s are not monster rebounders that clean the glass and nothing else. Take a look around at the starting 4s just in our division. Now tell me who would you rather have gaurding any of them, Hayes, Howard or Artest?
On this, we agree. Problem is, his aggression is not limited to the basketball court. Again, we disagree. The Rockets aren't championship contenders because they are too "soft" or "nice". The player's demeanor have nothing to do with the talent gap between this team and the rest of the Western Conference. It's because their management has consistently failed to find good players over the years. I hate to keep using San Antonio as an example but last night I saw them roll a guy from Holland off the bench. I mean, Holland? You have got to be kidding me... On one end of the spectrum you have Houston who's consistently been picking at the top of the draft since 2000 (4 times in the Lottery) with only 2 players to show for those drafts. At the other end, you've got San Antonio who despite picking in the low low 20's, somehow manages to find Parker, Barbosa, Oberto and Elson. I just don't see how Artest would be enough to overcome all those years of ineptitude. Six years ago, they (Rox) depended on a player (EG) with issues to make a difference and the whole affair ended badly. Just last year, they picked up another wayward child (Bonzi) who ended up doing next to nothing to help them out. And now folks want to bring in Artest as if he'll be some sort of magic bullet to wipe out the last 7 years of this organization's mistakes. If it really was that easy to escape the consequences of your actions, then the Lakers would have won the NBA title by now after stupidly breaking up a true championship team in order to placate Kobe aka "The Next Jordan" and the Mavericks would have won a title or two by now.
As much as I'd love to get Rashard Lewis, or Ron Artest, or now even Richard Jefferson for some packages including Shane Battier, why are we trying to get players that we're not in entire need of? We're in need of a PF or PG. I mean those guys are wonderful to get, but in the western conference we need a big body to control the big bodies in the west or a great PG to control other great PGs of the west. Raefer Alston and Chuck Hayes (though i like the guy) will not get it done against teams with PG/PF duos such as Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer.
Keep...We should'nt trade Shane Battier. He brings hustle, he brings defense, and he can shoot the 3. He brings those things everynight. We don't wanna trade Battier
I agree with you. We should NOT trade Battier. He is the most reliable role player on this team. He is the best perimeter defender and a great 3-point shooter on this team, like Bowen of Spurs. He does many little things not shown on stat but changing games. He will be very valuable for Rocket's championship runs. For PF, the Rockets does not a very good offense guy like Artest or Webber (we have Yao in low post, T-Mac and James/VSpan attacking the paint). But we do need a strong and athletic big man aside Yao. His major tasks will be (1) defending athletic/tall PFs and (2) rebounding the ball, i.e., a taller version of Hayes. There should be quite a few players available and inexpensive. We don't need trade Battier to get one of them.
If I'm not mistaken, according to JVG the main reason why Battier didn't man the PF position that he was originally traded for was because he was too good of a defensive presence on the other team's best scorer? (typically a 2 or 3) Basically, he was too good a defender to 'waste' at the 4? Seems like a pretty bad reason to trade a guy - as many an NBA analyst will say, the Spurs wouldn't have won those last few championships without Bruce Bowen. I've also heard a rumor that the Rox management was more than annoyed at talk of impending Battier trades, and that they're not that stupid to trade away their own version of Bowen, much less one signed to a very reasonable contract until 2011. Remember, the Grizzlies tanked miserably once he left - you can't underestimate them intangibles. The only way they trade him is if they bring in someone else to effectively guard the opposing team's top scorer, has offensive game, and signed to a reasonable contract, and that ain't gonna be easy. If anything, you'd want two Battier's - one at the 3 to guard the top offensive player at the 2/3, and another at the PF that can neutralize the team's PF as well as can shoot treys to draw him away from the paint on offense to free up Yao and allow the playmakers to penetrate and create more scoring options. He doesn't need to create his own offense - that's what Yao, McGrady, Bonzi, James and Spanoulis are for (more than enough) - he just needs to keep the flow going, which he excels at.
We need to keep Shane Battier because of his defense, work ethic, and role playin offense are important to this team. However, if the Rockets do acquire Ron Artest, Battier becomes expendable because Artest plays even better D and is a bigger scoring threat. Although Artest can play the 4, he is not a rebounding machine and is best served playing the 3 spot (much like Battier). Once we get Artest, then we can trade Battier in a deal for a real #4, one who gets rebounds, block shots, and can put up maybe 10 ppg. The Rockets should only trade Battier if Artest comes in, because otherwise Battier's defense and hustle would be sorely missed. What kind of PF do you think the Rockets could get for Battier? i proposed this trade, Battier and Novak to NY for David Lee. I think NY would consider it because they need a 3 pt shooter (Novak) and Battier is an attractive option to any team. Plus they are rumored to be interested in drafting PF Williams or McRoberts, so they wouldn't still need Lee. With Lee in the 4 spot and Artest at 3, the Rockets would be championship bound (more so than with Artest at 4 at Battier at 3).
The problem is on most nights in the Western Conference, the other team’s best scorer is not 2/3 and Battier’s versatility as a defender is not all that great. He’s strictly a small forward that can guard other small forwards and some slower shooting guards. He can’t guard power forwards and he darn sure can’t guard point guards and in the Western Conference, those are easily the two most important positions, with power forwards like Duncan, Boozer, Nowitzki, Brand, Garnett and point guards like Nash, Parker, Deron, Paul, Baron Davis. The only two matchups where his one-on-one defense might be valuable against is LA (Kobe) and Denver (Melo), but both are mediocre teams we could beat even without Shane.
