Roxran: Not all Israelis are racist. But Israel is a racist state. If a state actively discriminates on the basis of ethnicity or religion, it is racist and bigoted. Israel indisputedly does. Factually. Not open to interpretation. Therefore, Israel is racist. Yet we deny this. We aid their regime. Therefore, we're supporting a racist regime. I'm sure many individuals are not.
I would be curious if you'd like to name a nation state that is not racist by your definition. You can't examine your policy in a vacuum. If we were to cut off relations with every 'racist state,' we'd be in complete isolation. And then we'd have NO influence on any of those countries.
i have numerous close palestinian friends who'd tell you that israel is nothing but a racist bigot that kills innocent kids. who have themselves lost family members. an israeli still has most of the things we do yet palestinians live in dirt villages with no water or food or jobs. in the very least they're racist. at worst they're trying to eradicate a whole generation of people. nazi-esque. today a 10 year old girl was killed. im sure she was threatening the state of israel by throwing rocks though. look 80% of israelis that live in israel for the most part migrated or had their parents migrate. most of them come from ussr. unlike the palestinians who have lived there for centuries. yet israelis have water and just down the road a village thats palestinian has no water. they have special road systems going to settlements that are only allowed for jews to travel on. don't tell me thats not racist. and if they just want peace why do they refuse anything from the UN?
That's fair. Let me rephrase. The hard line right wing Israeli government would love for us to go after Islam with both barrels. I'm sure most Israeli's want peace. Good point on that one. I think I got a bit carried away.
Ottomaton : I don't know why you aren't understand the situation well not only you but a huge population in the west . israel is an invader force !! don't you undersatnd ? what would you do if someone tried or occoupied your country ? masscred the people ? Killed your childrens ? stole your whole live ? are you going to have a peace with him ? you have nothing to do in your live . just tell me how ?????? you and the other american people said nothing but REVENGE after the Attacks on WTC and Pentagon . i wonder what would be your situation if you were a palestinian !! Isreal founded illegally . and someday this state will collapse . so please answer those questions in order to proceed in this topic ! ROXRan : what about the palestinians ? what about their human rights ?? what about their lands ? their homes ? thier losted freedom ?? that israely wasn't supposed to be in occupied palestine . then when he treats badly with palestinians . he has to know that he would face the same thing . Jeff : what an idiot thing !!! isreal said no for the Super power in the world and they will have the capacity to say that whenever they want !! do you know why ?? have to think about it !
When the British Empire controled the region they approved the concept of Israel. The United Nations approved the concept of Israel. If you want to blame someone, blame the British, the French, and the US. We did it, not the Israelis. Come and get us beyotch.
It will be very interesting to see if Sharon gets away with thumbing his nose at Bush. This could be the beginning of the end of Sharon. I don't know if Israel has crossed the US this bad before.
Jeff, I knew that was what you meant, I just didn't think you said it in the right way initially. Thank you for not taking it personally. I have been jumped on before for questioning/challenging you in the past, but you (they) would have to know me better to know what I meant. In this instance, I thought you had said something improper and pointed it out, so that you could properly convey your opinion. Yes, it was to point out a mistake, but it was more an offer to allow you to correct it, than to rub your nose in it. I hope that makes sense, without coming accross as being an arse. But, I guess this is a little off topic. I still think "Islam" is not what Israeli hard-liners are against. I could be wrong, but I think they're more against radical fundamental Islam, much as we are now. I don't think everything that Israel does is good, just like I don't think everything the U.S. does is good. But, I also don't think they've acted "worse" than their neighboring countries either.
That's not true. In Lebanon, for instance, there's a substantial Christian population. They're incorporated into government. In Iran, there are two officially recognized Christian churches that are allowed representation in the official government parliamentary body. The Palestinians, for decades, were treated far worse than many other religious minorities in neighboring countries. The only group that's been treated comparably awful must be the Kurds. Jews were treated just fine, until the creation of Israel, when most emigrated.
haven, I'm not sure what you're arguing, but to add to the confusion, a little history: Since the destruction of the Second Jewish Commonwealth by the Romans, the land referred to as "Palestine" had been ruled by a series of foreign occupiers. Each successive ruler subdivided his conquest as he saw fit, though none, since the Romans, considered "Palestine" as having a separate administrative or geographic entity. The Ottoman Turks, who ruled this area from the year 1516 to 1917, regarded it as part of Southern Syria. The land later referred to as "Palestine" was divided into three separate districts. The area was underpopulated and remained economically stagnant until the arrival of the first Zionist pioneers in the 1880's, who came to rebuild the Jewish land. The country had remained "The Holy Land" in the religious and historic consciousness of mankind, which associated it with the Bible and the history of the Jewish people. Jewish development of the country also attracted large numbers of other immigrants - both Jewish and Arab It was only after World War I, at the Paris Peace Conference, that the name "Palestine" was applied to a clearly defined piece of territory - the area which today comprises Israel and Jordan. It was agreed that "Palestine" was to become a League of Nations Mandate, entrusted to Great Britain. Under the terms of the Mandate, Britain's principal obligation was to facilitate the implementation of the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917, which pledged "the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people." No territorial restrictions whatsoever - neither east nor west of the Jordan River were placed on the Jewish National Home. In fact, the Mandate stipulated that Britain was to "facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage close settlement by Jews on the land."
The Israeli-Palenstine conflict is too complicated for any of us, for anybody in the world, for that matter, to be able to rightfully say which way is right and which way isnt. We can't even fully define what the problem is. It obviously isn't solely just a gegraphical issue which can be solved by archaeolgoical discoveries (if even they can be substantiated as unbiased an accurate) claiming Arabs as the first inhabitants of the land. Who are Arabs anyways? Is today's Middle Eastern population decended from this first group over 6,00 years ago? Does looking at this help the situation at all anyway? Are the bigger issues the underlying religious implications? This list could go on and on and on and on and on...you get the idea. Yet, I honestly am a little taken aback by the obvious die-hard sentiments most people on this board are taking towards this issue. In light of the enormity of the issues at hand here, most people seem to be either on one side or the other. Direct claims to the obvious racism of Israel. Counterattacks on invasions of rightful Israeli lands by the Palestines. Who is right and who is wrong? Nobody knows, but one thing that is certain, America certainly doesn't know. Its my opinion that at times America asserts way too much of an influence on foreign policy issues. In light of the Sept. 11th incident, this may be understandable. But in general, aren't there more important domestic matters at hand. Heck, Americans aren't the rightful owners of America (Native Americans arguably are), but you rarely see people becoming so incencesed over our treatment of American Indians as they become over the Israel-Arab dichotomy.
DREAMer: My most recent post pertained to the assertion that Israel's behavior is normative for the region, as pertains to ethnic minorities. While even proof that such behavior is normative wouldn't justify it for Israel, examples of non-discriminitory behavior towards minorities eliminates even that weak argument. Or mitigates it, at least, since I certainly concede some bigotry takes place elsewhere in the ME.
Are you the one that kicked out the Muslims from their very houses? No it were the Israelis right? Just cause the freakin UN approves something does not mean its right. And guess what? They are blaming us and they (Al-Queda) did come and get us beyotch! In no way am I even remotely condoning what Osama and his freaks did. If there was a way, I would personally shoot all those sick bastards. Better yet I would make em inhale their own freakin ****! But US will have to change its policy in the Middle East. It has favoured Israel for far too long at the expense of Palestinians. I am not saying all Jews are racist, but neither are all Muslims. Israel was wrong in how it was created. But thats in the past now. Right now both parties are in the wrong. Israel with their constant scare tactics and Palestinians with their terrorism. Also UN is the biggest joke ever in the history of political leadership. They can kiss my ASS! They are the ones that created this mess and created the mess in Indo-Pak. Britain is the biggest one to blame in all of this crap. The British goverment (NOT PEOPLE) back then did some pretty stupid things didnt they? Creation of Israel right in the Middle East! They are also partly responsible for the stuff going on in my home country. Right now Israel needs to stop advancing their army into Palestinian land and Arafat needs to quit supporting Hamas and various other militant groups. When are these people going to realize what they are doing to their very own kids. I mean whats more important, the past or the future? If they truly want their kids to stop being shot at then they will get together and hammer out a reasonable peace process.
IIRC, Bush declared war on terrorism. He asked for the support of every nation in the world. He said, pick a side, with us or with the terrorists. I don't think anyone could argue that Palestine doesn't harbor and promote terrorism in the state of Israel. As such, Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands seems to fall right in line with what Bush had asked for. It seems a little hypocritical to me that the United States can go after the terrorists that attacked us, but Israel is not allowed to go after the terrorists that attack them. Has Israel been innocent for the past 50 years? No, but they haven't been the ones who have consistantly broken every cease fire agreement. If the rock hits someone in the head it could kill them. Why do you think people are throwing rocks, as a gesture of friendship? The rock is the weapon of choice for a poor Palestinian. While I do not know the circumstances of this specific death, (was she throwing rocks at people?) I do know that throwing rocks at people has often precipitated an armed respone in Israel. People over there should know by now that throwing rocks can get you killed, so stop doing it. A question for those who support an elimination of the state of Israel: Where would you have them go? Israel is the only Jewish nation in the world. It isn't like there are twenty other Jewish nations completely surrounding the country. Finally, re: the racism of the state of Israel. Why do the Palestinians stay? Don't you think, if given the choice, black slaves would have left America? I know if the state of California was given to the Chinese (completely random group, could be anyone), and I was treated as a second class citizen, I would move.
Q8 Rocket - you think that Israel will crumble someday? I don't know that there's a country in the world with more patriotism and will to survive. Every citizen serves in the army, and they've been invaded three times and won every time - I'm not betting against them.
a lot of comments have been made many times in this thread, as well as previous threads on this issue.. so let's get a couple things straight.. Jewish terrorists systematically murdered over 240 residents, including women and children, of the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin PRIOR to the inception of Israel. This village didn't even fall under the land that had been proposed to be given to the Jews; though it is apparent the Haganah did have other ideas by utilizing the Irgun and Stern Groups in order to implement theirs. The fledgling IDF drove 700,000 Palestinians out of their homes upon the inception of Israel. Were you expecting the Arabs to hang back and watch then as they do now?? Jewish terrorists bombed the King David Hotel which resulted in the killing of 94 people, mostly British, and wounding 50. Israel has had no qualms of electing Jewish terrosists to lead their country thus far, so it is in no position to point fingers when it comes to the issue of terrorism.. w/ regards to the history aspect.. the Palestnians had a rich agrarian community up and running long before the 19th century Zionists set up their game plan.. as for territorial restrictions, they were all there, but naturally disregarded.. even our history text books illustrate this in key-colored maps.. as for cease-fire, and related such, agreements, don't even start.. Israel has yet to even adhere to un resolutions 194 and 242.. which is kinda funny since they petitioned so hard to get into the UN, yet they don't feel any obligation to adhere to its Charter, Geneva Conventions, or give any regard to human rights for that matter.. the oslo agreement of '93 called for the withdrawal of israeli occupation troops from the west bank and gaza strip.. that never happened.. troops never left, in fact they fortified their positions inside the so-called autonomous regions.. the rock-throwers probably aren't too pleased w/ the fact that Israeli soldiers randomly detain/arrest and torture palestinians w/o reason.. responding to rock throwers w/ bullets?? not normal bullets mind you, but dum dums.. bullets that are specially designed to blow apart on impact/penetration and so have been banned by the international community.. ever heard of tear gas?? it has the same discouraging effect minus the killing.. palestinians are getting killed in israel just by sitting in their homes, they might as well put up some sort of a fight.. i don't believe anyone is asking for the elimination of the state of israel, but an elimination of its apartheid practices, restoration of lands to the respective palestinian owners, withdrawal of military occupying forces, and allowance for the Palestinians to freely move therein.. just comply w/ the international laws that govern the globe, and no one should have any problems.. regarding the Palestinians staying, it's most probb b/c they've been living there for thousands of years.. they don't have to move anywhere.. as for the Jews, well, seeing as how 74% of them weren't even born in Israel, they can just go ahead and move back to their homes in whichever country they came from.. if they're not from the region, they don't have the right to force anyone there out..
Simply not true. In fact, Arafat and his cronies were charter members in the 'wipe Israel off the planet' club. Yeah, don't be a racist. Don't screw the Palestinians, screw the Jews. Hello? Really the Jews have as legitimate claim to the place as anybody else. Their cultural history goes thousands of years back there, so what is your point. And I'm not sure what the US has to apologize for. We weren't in control of 'Palestine' at the time of the transfer and creation of Israel. We didn't stand by and let what was left of the world's Jews get wiped out by Arab armies upon its creation, and I don't think that's bad either. Palestinians and Israelis are both dying, and the Israelis are as dead as the Palestinians. But until the radical elements are controlled or wiped out, the Israelis aren't going to sit back and not react and if you put yourself in their place you'd probably make the same decision. Twenty years ago we've have never thought that Arafat would be in control of land ceded back by Israel. Unthinkable. Now he is. There is a peace process, but radicals are derailing it. They can count on foolish Israeli backlash and they are getting it. Maybe if the Palestinians themselves stopped these people internally, the peace process could be finished. Then how would the US be justified in telling the Israelis what to do? And what are all the Arab groups doing messing in the conflict? Especially when the Palestinians weren't treated any better by previous regimes going back, what, thousands of years?
haven : "That's not true. In Lebanon, for instance, there's a substantial Christian population. They're incorporated into government. In Iran, there are two officially recognized Christian churches that are allowed representation in the official government parliamentary body. The Palestinians, for decades, were treated far worse than many other religious minorities in neighboring countries. The only group that's been treated comparably awful must be the Kurds. Jews were treated just fine, until the creation of Israel, when most emigrated" lebanon is not even a democratic state it's ruled by syria that's not a democratic state either, Iran is a terror sponsering state (hizbulla, islamic jihad) there are about 3 million arabs in gaza and the west bank i admit that the treatment to them can be much batter but acctulay these 3 million were controled by jorden until 1967 and the treatment to them was as bad if not worst. note if u like that there isn't even 1 arab democracy in the middle east i admit that we are not all good but you should care about arabs that live in other places too shouldn't you? ever been to egypet or jorden have you seen the poverty in which they live in is that our fault too? about israeli arabs I have said before-the are israeli citizen like every other they go to schools and universties my father works with some i meet some every day they cant get in to some goverment jobs because there is a obvious conflict of intrests because most of them does not belive in the ideas that the state of israel is based on.
Not all Jews, or even Israeli Jews want injustice, but extremist terrorists (sharon) who control the Israeli gov't want all non-Jews, Christians AND Muslims to be razed from Israel. How can someone that was found by their own government to be partly responsible for human rights violations and war crimes against thousands of innocent civilians, be able to be elected as the same country's prime minister?!?! Chrisitians in Israel under attack as well Even Jews see the injustices of the Israeli government against Palestinians.
That was a very interesting site RocketScientist. In the editorial section I found a Rabbi's point of view that I agreed with and made some very strong arguments about current Israeli Policy: ========================================= Ariel Sharon: The War Criminal Takes Over by Rabbi Michael Lerner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of TIKKUN: A Bimonthly Jewish Critique of Politics Culture and Society, author most recently of Spirit Matters: Global Healing and the Wisdom of the Soul (Hampton Roads, 2000), and rabbi of Beyt Tikkun Synagogue in San Francisco. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Many American Jews are responding to the election of Ariel Sharon as Prime Minister of Israel with sadness, mourning and disgust. When Ariel Sharon was forced to resign from his position as Defense Minister during the Lebanon War, most Israelis felt that they had finally rid themselves of a man whose record of violence could no longer be ignored. Though his troops only supervised but didn't personally do the shooting of the hundreds of civilians in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps, the Israeli public knew of his many other acts of terror (including massacres of civilian Bedoins in the Sinai). By standards now being applied in Kosovo and Serbia, Ariel Sharon should have been brought to trial for war crimes. Instead, he now has been elected Prime Minister. Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Barak would like to blame this all on the Palestinians and their failure to accept his generous offers. But the reality is that Barak's offers were mean-spirited and limited. Barak was elected in a euphoria of hope for peace and he had a mandate to move ahead decisively. Had he announced an unequivocal intention to dismantle the West Bank settlements, allow for a limited number of Palestinian refugees to return each year, and create a climate of real cooperation to provide Palestinians with the economic infrastructure to make a Palestinian state viable, Barak could have built his electoral mandate into a permanent peace force. Barak could have appealed to traditional Jewish values like the Torah's unequivocal commandment to "Love the stranger." He could have urged Israelis as a patriotic duty to begin to create dialogue groups with Palestinians and Israeli Arabs and to explore other paths for people-to-people reconciliation. Israeli idealism would have responded had it been tapped. Instead, Barak played to his Right. He insisted that he would never compromise on Jerusalem or dismantle settlements. He did nothing to prepare the population for concessions he would eventually find necessary to make or to build reconciliation. Nor were his peace offers as generous as the media sometimes portrays. Even his last offer would have left 200,000 settlers, fully armed and hostile to Palestinians, on the West Bank. Israeli Arabs contributed mightily to Barak's electoral victory last time, but Barak refused to give them even a single seat in his cabinet on the grounds that having such an Arab would "discredit" his government. When Israeli Arabs protested the massive use of force to repress their Palestinian brothers and sisters rioting in outrage after Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount last September, dozens were wounded, thousands faced pogroms from angry Jewish crowds wondering through and stoning their homes, and at least 17 were killed by Israeli bullets,—yet Barak could only find the courage to apologize for this in the last three days of the election when he finally realized how much he had lost his own base of support. No wonder why so many found it hard to rally to his support. The path that Israel is following is no surprise. Countries that seek to maintain by force the occupation over another people will eventually drift toward repressive or even fascistic leadership. Half way measures of the sort offered by Barak cannot work. Either Israel ends the Occupationm dismantles the settlements, and gets out of the West Bank, or it will drift to the Right until it has the likes of Ariel Sharon at its helm. But with Sharon, Israel could follow a path designed to provoke a wave of ethnic cleansing much like that which caused the Palestinian refugee problem in the first place. George Bush senior was the only U.S. President to have the courage to stand up to the "Israel-right or wrong" lobby that claims to speak for most American Jews. Bush Sr. told them to stop expanding settlements or lose US "loan guarantees" for money Israel sought to resettle Soviet Jews. When Israeli Prime Minister Shamir refused, Bush stuck to his guns, and the result was to create economic pressures inside Israel which helped elect pro-peace prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1992. It seems unlikely that George W. will have similar courage or vision. Ironically, standing up to Israel and insisting that it dismantle the settelements, get out of the West Bank and Gaza, and accept publicily part of the responsibility for having caused the Paelstinian refugee problem (and state its willingness to take back a portion of those refugees small enough to not upset the Jewish character of Israel) is the most pro-Jewish thing he could do, though many Jews wouldn't read it that way. The truth is that Judaism and the Jewish people are suffering from the impact of the Occupation. The mean-spiritedness in Israel that leads to a Sharon landslide makes many younger Israelis wish to leave Israel and settle in the U.S., and many young American Jews to say "my parents were Jewish" rather than claim an identity defined by Israelis as oppressors and people who think that power is more important than love. When the American Jewish establishment rallies around such an Israel, they do more to drive young Jews into assimilation than any fear of anti-Semitism could ever do. So, many American Jews greet the election of Ariel Sharon with great sadness and mourning—mourning for Israel and mourning for the soul of the Jewish people. With Ariel Sharon leading Israel, the world will be a scarier place for everyone. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
