very good analysis, I still think we could have won at least 10 of those game if it wasn't for Gundy... we don't have a decent roster? yea right, let me remember the roster that should have played at least 30 games and up, and without JVG coaching we would have been much further Alston Bonzi Tmac Battier Yaoza its simple, look at the names and please someone tell me that those guys could not bring more than the first round exit? It's JVG philosophy that killed us
flawed argument amel. you assume bonzi would actually want to play. he didnt. plus, as we have all seen...it takes more than 5.
Will I must congratulate you on your best ever posting! A very accurate analysis of our season and predicament. I concure at this point in time, with limited knowledge, that Morey is too much of the old way of thinking and so far by his statements is not good at interpreting his stats in a basketball manner. Stats never lie!
good point, but its arguable, if the rumor is true?! the relationship between Bonz and JVG and so on. My theory is more reliable if everything was healthy with this team, but it wasn't and mostly of is JVG's responsibility
Ok Daryl Morey has been the Rockets GM official for what 1 week? Yeah he may influenced the moves made last year but they still seem legit to me. 1) Shane Battier - We desperately needed some to guard the best perimeter player of the opponents. If you remember the last time we were in the playoffs against Dallas, McGrady spend so much energy guarding Dirk that he became tired and flat in games 3 to 5. So naturally the management thought we needed a better defender to take the load off T-Mac. 2) Bonzi Wells - Now Battier made up for defense but he lacked offense so we got Bonzi a terrific scorer on the cheap for 2 mil. Now what happened between him and JVG is not the fault of management of Morey cause his job is to acquire talent and player he thinks are financially reasonable and fit a need on the team. 3) Kirk Snyder - Everyone complained we lacked athleticism so once again we went out and got us a athletic wingman for cheap by trading 2nd round pick. 4) Novak - Need shooters? Ok how about we this guy who can shoot lights out but can't do anything else. 5) V-Span - Backup PG? OK lets get the Greek kid he has shown he can play with the best of Europe. See Morey provided all types he was asked for. I think what happened his that JVG provided Morey with a list of what he needs like: 1) Perimeter defense 2) Scoring 3) Althleticm 4) Outside Shooting 5) Slashers Now Morey went out and got those thing but JVG forgot one very important detail: he wants those skills in every single player. Morey thought we needed specialist for each skill but JVG wants guy that have all those qualities otherwise he will not play them. That was the true tragedy of the JVG era where players had to be perfect in almost every category especially defense otherwise he wouldn't play them. Precisely the reason why they want a coaching coaching because Morey can still go out and find some role-players for each specific need but he wants a coach willing to play them. After all we are above the cap with little or no assets and it is very hard to find quality players every year and for a relative cheap price then have to watch them rot on the bench because the coach won't play them.
Give it a rest. 1.) What did Sloan do with their lottery pick, Ronnie Brewer? He played their rookies and 2nd years that were ready to play (Milsap...and Dee Brown due to injuries) much like Van Gundy did with Head and Hayes. 2.) How much playing time did Pop give to Oberto as a rookie? Parker and Manu are stars because they're freaking talented, not because Popovich played them as rookies. And you do know the Spurs traded the Suns Barbosa? 3.) Diaw was a first round pick who has been around the league for a few years. Barbosa was a first round pick. You do know Barbosa's playing time went down his 2nd year in the league, under D'Antoni for the first time? And that a 2nd year Luther Head played as many mpg as Barbosa did last year? I'm with Nick. This team needs talent. And I want a pony. (Uncle Drayton got the Astros a Caballo, I only want a pony!)
there you have it thats exactly what we said at the start of the season everyone on here praised CD, everyone! it was a happy camp, and now they talk about how CD made bad moves, its unbelievable! we have a good team, we still have....just use them right
nice post. there is no set rule. just playing some guy doesnt make him good and whether he plays or not may have no effect on the time frame that it takes for a player to become productive. comparing to all these other scenarios just shows how random it is. Like you mentioned, brewer was a lottery pick and barely played, yet millsaps was a 2nd rounder and is a big time contributor.
Everyone also said the season was over when Yao went down, everyone! Everyone said we'd win a championship prety soon when we got T-mac, everyone! Everyone agreed that the talent was subpar in 05...everyone! What does that all mean? It means fans are fickle, will buy into whatever the public sentiment is (dictated in part by our awful local yes-men media coverage), and you're simply only beliveing what you want to believe (JVG was responsible for the bad GM moves, while CD was responsible for the good ones... these players can play, even though multiple teams either gave up or didn't care for them due to their lack of talent, etc.) You keep this team intact, and expect these 3-8 to compete with the other western teams' 3-8, and you will be dissapointed... no matter who is the coach. Upgrades needed.
I couldn't agree more with those who feel that we simply need more talent on the roster. This is precisely why we need to be knocking on Francis' door the second he gets bought out. We also do not have the luxury of striking out with our draft pick which is why i'm in favor of either trading the pick outright or packaging it along with Luther to see if we could land a tested impact player.
People this team is already talented enough we have the players especially on the bench but we might need upgrades at the PG and PF position. All those those coaches and teams like Spurs, Jazz and Suns have made efficient use of their players whether they are young players like Barbosa, Millsap, Diaw or old veterans like Fisher, Horry and Kurt Thomas. These coaches know how to maximize what they get out of a player. Rockets need to do that as well with a new coach who can play everyone to their strengths and not try to mold them into his own type. It takes time and effort to develop young players which JVG was never willing to do.
Utah has four all-stars and deep bench. Three of them are close to superstars. They are better talents.
Nike, Your logic is sound but it is also based on a belief that JVG can evaluate and develope talent. Personally I don't have faith in the guy so I still tend to lean towards DaDakota's way of thinking. Answer me this. Was Bonzi any more of a head case in Houston than he was in Sac or Memphis? Or was JVG just to regid and inflexable to be able or willing to deal with him. Bonzi has been good to great every where he has played and now all of a sudden in Houston he can't get out of JVG's dog house or stay in the rotation. Didn't he dominate San Antonio last year in the play-offs? I don't think Head or Haye's are good examples of JVG having enough ability to develope rookies because he was forced to play both of those guys during their rookie years due to injuries. How about Boki? Was trading Boki for David Wesley the best thing for the team or just the best thing for the team for that year. Did bringing David Wesley to the Rockets really give us a legit shot at the Championship or was it a very short sighted move that helped us get to the play offs but actually moved us further away from the championship in the long run. The only good offensive years we have had with JVG as coach was the 2005 season when we aquired Wesley, Berry and James during the season. I have always believed that those three plus Bobby Sura were the catalyst for the great year we had and the really enjoyable offense that the Rockets put on the floor. It is a coincedence that none of those players perticipated in JVG's off season, training camp or preseason? I don't think so. Wells and Berry were both less effective the following year after going through and learning the JVG way of running an offense. Certainly it's hard to argue the point that Pop and Sloan have developed more unproven or rookie talent then JVG has. Is it because they have had better unproven talent than JVG to work with? Personally I'm not convinced.
Yeh that is the type of PG i envision for this team. V-Span can be that guy if only his shot was better. He should concentrate on improving that jumper this summer. When Parker came in the league, his shot wasn't very good, he continually worked on it and now he's shooting a good percentage. I haven't lost faith in V-Span, i hope he doesn't give up on our team and go back to Europe. But on the topic of our team being not being built for the playoffs. That's correct. Our role players played good in the regular season but choked and disappeared in the playoffs. Shane (except for one or two playoff games), Juwan, and Head didn't contribute enough. They all choked. They had the same open shots they had in the regular season but bricked them in the playoffs. Besides Tmac, nobody on our team is considered a good playoff performer. Juwan's never had success in the playoffs, neither has Shane. Head is inexperienced but showed he cant step up. Bonzi is really the only one that is a playoff performer but too bad he's lazy. I have my eyes on Marquis Daniels, since the Pacers hardly play him. I remember the guy stepping up for the Mavs numerous times in the playoffs, even averaged 15 ppg once. Also I remember when the Mavs started choking against the Heat in the Finals, Daniels FINALLY got playing time and attacked the Heat defense, but it was too little too late. How we get him? I was thinking of trading Juwan for him, since they might need a big man if O'Neal gets traded. We won't lose much in Juwan when it comes to the playoffs since he contributed nothing.
Wow you people are shallow so I going start calling some names and you tell me how some many player failed under JVG and were either traded after being in his doghouse or neutered by the man himself. 1) Maurice Taylor - JVG's doghouse 2) Bostjan Nachbar - Neutred 3) Stromile Swift - JVG's doghouse 4) Derek Anderson - JVG's doghouse 5) Bonzi Wells - JVG's doghouse 6) Steve Novak - Neutred 7) Kirk Snyder - Neutred 8) Vassilis Spanoulis - Neutred How can 8 guys be be deemed useless by JVG? What about the guys JVG loved and praised? 1) Charlie Ward - Retired but still gets a paycheck 2) Bob Sura - injured and semi-retired 3) Jon Barry - Retired 4) Ryan Bowen - gone from the NBA 5) David Wesley - About to retire from the Cavs 6) Charles Oakley - retired You people realize every summer for the last years we get a bunch of guys in who we all think are good fit but even before the all-star break JVG has made his mind that he won't ever play them again. True with Stromile, Derek Anderson and now Bonzi. Forget the rookies at this point, when will JVG develop a decent player from a group of veterans? Why is that people think these players were natural failures when the list keeps growing every year on how many guys JVG just refused to play in his system?
after battier and alston trade, all CD had was mle and te, he used that to get wells/snyder/vspan, could any1 have done better? ppl all said cd was god at that time and wells alone >>>> mike james which = mle
A week ago, this would be a good question, but take a look at the quote from Bucher in other thread. Bonzi mailed it in, and there's not much of a question about it assuming Bucher isn't a liar (and he's one of the best reporters out there, imo). I should also add, though -- I thought JVG absolutely had to get out of the first round, and I do think it's time for him to move on. And I do agree this is the one area his successor could improve upon. This team needs offensive talent. Van Gundy has not shown much of an affinity for offensively talented, but otherwise flawed players (like Bonzi). If his successor is better able to accept talent, that would be an improvement. The only way to upgrade talent for a cap strapped team like ours is to accept either head case players (like Artest) or go even further into cap hell (unlikely, and unrelated to any coach). Van Gundy's done it before (Sprewell), but I wonder if his patience with crazy-types has passed him by. Not that I'd blame him for this -- there have been plenty of coaches who have lost their jobs for trying to deal with the crazy ones, and failed. He didn't have to play them (or in Trucky's case, start) this year. And didn't Head basically beat Derek Anderson for a job, which led to DA's demise? This whole "develop rookies" thing is way overblown. Larry Brown is considered one of the greatest "teachers" in the game -- look what he did with Darko. Is Van Gundy to blame for a guy like Reece Gaines amounting to nothing? The fact is, we haven't had much young talent infused. Perhaps that's on JVG, perhaps not. We've had, what, one 1st round pick in the last 4 years? Without knowing who's behind the personnel moves, it's hard to say. I do know Van Gundy never held a gun to CD's head telling him to trade the picks. You can point to the Battier trade as a "Van Gundy" move, but I'm not even positive on that one -- Battier is the ultimate "Moneyball" type player, and I think Morey had a big say in that one. I make that move again. The idea was the right one -- we needed to get quicker, and TMac needed to be playing the 3. That was the plan this year, until we abandoned Battier at the 4 -- and I wouldn't be too shocked if we move back to that next year. 1.) I'd say Wesley's role for us was bigger than Boki's role is now, 3 years later. 2.) I'm not sure you're saying it, but Dakota and others have claimed JVG forced Boki into that trade. The Hornets had no reason to make that trade without getting some sort of chip, and that chip was a free look at Boki. C'mon now. This is a ridiculous conspiracy theory. Wesley and Barry were old when we got them, and got older. Take a look at Wesley these days, just 2 years later. Barry retired. James showed the next year every bit of the offensive fire power he showed with us, and we basically admitted we screwed up. CD went so far as saying we wouldn't have traded him if Sura was healthy. What has Sloan done that JVG hasn't? He's the guy who cut Carlos Arroyo and Maurice Williams. He did nothing with Kirk Snyder, either. Look at the Jazz starters: 1. Deron Williams - #3 overall pick 2. Derek Fisher - veteran, acquired in trade 3. Kirilenko - drafted 4. Boozer - free agent 5. Okur - free agent Boozer and Okur were top line free agent signings. Fisher, Harpring, Giricek were all hired guns making 4-6 mill. So, there real contributors this year that were developed were a top 3 pick (Deron Williams), Kirilenko (a steal), and a pair of 2nd rounders in Collins and Milsap. That's not much different of a track record than Yao, Head, and Hayes.
It is like JVG-Rookie delimma. For some reason, JVG never had a good rookie to develop and people say JVG does not develope rookies. Now we see JVG never had a good bench player to love, while you blame JVG put them in his godhouse. Also, JVG never coached a real dominant superstar with killer instinct and unlimited effort. what he got is just Yao, TMAC, Ewing.....a bunch of soft all stars. JVG is in his own class when talking about bad luck in "personnels" For example, Deke, who put up double digit rebounds for a streak of 10 games, somehow, only gave 5-minute minimal contributions in playoffs. Either he hates JVG or God hate JVG to let Deke sleep. JVG is a great coach. I love him.
Just for fun: Taylor's best season in the last five years came during JVG's first year in Houston. The following year JVG started him at the beginning of the year and Mo played poorly. Everyone hated his contract so the Rockets dumped him to save money. Since then he barely played for bad Knicks and Kings teams. JVG played him more than Rudy (even using him in the playoffs) and Nachbar responded with two years of 35% shooting and no confidence. He was added to a trade that sent the Rockets to the playoffs (shortsided in hindsight? can certainly be argued but it took Nachbar 5 years to contribute). Coaches who couldn't get Stro to play well - Lowe, Hubie, Fratello, JVG, Barone. Stro actually, amazingly, played more and better last year under JVG than this year. DA got more minutes and put up bigger numbers in Houston than his three years in Portland, Miami, and Charlotte. According to Bucher, Bonzi wasn't going to try for any team this past year. Novak is a one-dimensional three point specialist who shot 33%. He was not ready. Injured and inconsistent. There is a reason two teams traded him for nothing. He is also a "down the line you hope he turns out" guy. Span probably should have played more but his early audition went mostly bad and he has some serious holes in his game that need time to be fixed to play in the NBA.
