I'm sorry, but the girl doesn't know what she is talking about, there are not that many any true big men in the league right now...I would say anyone who is really a center or a big pF. In 80s and 90s, you did not see alot of teams living inside the perimeter like they do now. With adquete big men (c & pf) inside and hand checking on the perimeter, teams like the Suns would struggle to get out of the mid-80s against such a team. To list above (you only mentioned the best players, you didn't mentioned all of the good ones though). you can add Mutombo (Denver/Atlanta) Mourning (Charlotte/Miami) Muresan/Webber/Howard (Washington) Daugherty/Nance/Hot Rod Williams (Cleveland) Edwards, Laimbeer, Rodman (Detroit) Malone (Phildelphia/Atlanta) 1. Chicago beat most of these teams at some point over the 80s & 90s. the average big man in those days, nowadays would probably be an all-star. 2. And scoring actually started go down at the end of 80s, because of teams like the Bad Boys, the Bulls, and Knicks started to play a more college style type games with low-scoring and hard physical aggressive defensive.
Remove the rings from the argument and Kobe still has yet to achieve what Mike did. Take your team past the first round. Shoot close to 50% for a season (Mike did it for his career). Win a MVP. Win defensive player of the yr. Average 8 dimes a game for a season (since Mike doesn’t make his teammates better..look up his squad when he did that), or 8 boards. Etc….. It’s not like the rules haven’t been changed to help guards today.
Way to stick to your guns their buddy It's the ole Donald Trump saying, "any publicity is good publicity". Her (piece of trash) story was picked up on my random non-sports radio on the way to work for Pete Sake. ESPN is loving it, they don't have to take corporate responsibility for the village idiot. And the village idiot is smiling all the way to the bank.
wish granted taken from the espn board Let's just start off by saying one thing: MJ was never considered the best player because he scored 50 points for 'x amount' of games against the worst teams during the regular season. He's considered the greatest because he played his greatest games against the greatest teams in the playoffs. Remember, it was just last year that ESPN banned comparing KB to MJ after his Game 7 disappearing act. Now, KB has done some things MJ hasn't done of course but there are dozens and dozens of feats KB will never even come close to doing that MJ has done (see bottom). Single scoring feats are pretty much all he can try as MJ left that type of game a long time ago in order to build a better team. If you want to build an argument, let's put some numbers to back it up. Your article was all opinion and loose observation. I'm going to go through your article point by point. 1) Kobe is as good a defender. OK, right there, I almost stopped reading. Not even the biggest Kobe homing 12 year old kids will say this. In fact, they point that this is Kobe's biggest gap between him and MJ. It's actually safe to say that MJ at age 40 was a better defender than KB is now. MJ at age 40 averaged MORE steals AND blocks than KB now at fewer minutes per game. MJ in his prime averaged TWICE as much. MJ holds the record for most blocks by a guard (131) and is the first and only guard to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in the same year - twice. He remains unbreakable here - 9 all-first Defensive awards plus the DPOY in 1988, steals leader 3 times etc. Not even close. Kobe's got 4 all-first Defensive awards that Sports Illustrated calls "dubious at best" - especially with Shaq covering 3 of them. And, MJ never let up on his D when he was scoring 50. He was frenetic on both ends constantly. When KB goes to offense mode, his D. disappears as his energy is focused on scoring. I believe he had only 7 steals and 1 block in his 5 game scoring spree - not exactly MJ material. 2) MJ was a worse teammate and ball hog? Did you get this quote from a basketball forum? Sure, MJ was a tough teammate and was also selfish but he had a great excuse - he was shooting 3-6% better than his team. KB shoots 3-6 WORSE than LA. Nothing but nonsense here anyway as players soon picked up their duties around MJ and he became the best teammate and leader on his way to 6 rings. As Magic said during MJ's 37.1ppg season, "We know MJ can score but he needs to make his teammates better and win" and that's exactly what he did to squash the selfish-ballhog title forever. Now, if KB can shoot 3-6% better than his team - he has a license to hog as well. Unfortunately, this 5 game streak was his only license as he has shot a mediocre 45% through his career. MJ had that license for a decade with his career 50% FG. How can you compare? You can't. 3) MJ would have problems playing with Shaq? I guess you missed his interview in Cigar: "Give me a 7-footer like Shaq and I'd still be playing today". MJ knew it was all about the rings. 4) Best player argument? Sure, KB is the best right now. But, that argument might be good for 2 of his 11 years. That doesn't hold water for the rest of NBA history nor does it hold water against MJ's dominance for a decade and a half. And, plenty of people will argue for Shaq, Wade, Duncan as well still. 5) Today's athletes are bigger, stronger, faster. OK, you should have checked the stats. MJ played in the Big Man era - the tallest 4 year span ever was 85-89 with the single tallest year ever in 1987 at 6-7.62 (the year MJ scored 37.1ppg). Today, it's down to 6-7.26, Now, the players today are more wing players than Big players but that's because of all the MJ wannabes. You got it right that players are stronger and faster (weights, more athletic scouting) but that number has remained steady since MJ's last 3 peat when he was killing it at ages 33-35. It's EVEN more impressive that MJ's last 3 peat still had him dominating when there was still some form of hand checking allowed. Any strength advantage today's players have is gone through the no-hand-checks which remains the single greatest change in the game today. Don't forget the Jordan Rules as well - the most destructive defense ever for one player in an era of no flagrants. 6) NBA is tougher now? You did know it's the 'no hand-check era'. You do know there were no 'flagrants' back in the day right? You need to read Lazenby's "Death of Defense" regarding the no-hand-checks. http://lakernoise.blogspot.com/2006/...e-article.html 7) Kobe is surrounded by mediocre talent. True but look again, KB's team is actually better than you think and it's easily better than the coke-sniffing thugs MJ played with early in his career. This is a topic I that needs another 5 pages so I won't go there now. Don't forget, Kobe had the best team early in his career and look what he wanted to give up. Your argument that Phoenix and the Spurs are better than the Suns of yesterday are arguable at best. Do they compare to the Pistons or Knicks on the Eastern end of MJ's run as well? 8) Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing didn't affect the game like Shaq and Duncan. Excuse me but MJ ANNIHILATED the greatest centers INSTEAD OF HAVING THEM ON HIS OWN TEAM. I'm going to think this was typo - nothing could be this ignorant. Let's put it this way, MJ played greater than the greatest centers in an era where there were still true centers and he ended up denying all of them rings. MJ ended up with the #1 PER rating in history - above Wilt, Shaq and Robinson. The reason why title teams are built around centers is because they perform at the highest efficiency. MJ defied logic and performed at an even higher efficiency which is why he remains the exception - a 'center's productivity in a guard's package'. One of Kobe's main problems is that he knows this. That's why he wanted to get his own team because he knew he could never be the greatest behind a dominant big man. Conclusion: Whether you like Kobe or not, he's the best answer for the best player today and the closest to MJ in skill. But, that's where it ends. The scoring bursts against the bottom 26-30 defensive teams are great but very self-conscious and still nothing compared to Wilt. Wilt scored over 70 5 times in his career and he's no MJ either. And, KB has nothing going on in the playoffs as an individual - the only place where things matter and the world watches. If MJ dropped everything to push a scoring feat (dropped defense, dropped resting minutes, dropped developing real team chemistry) and all he went for was pushing 50 points - he'd never, ever have won and he wouldn't be the MJ we know today. He'd just be known as a scorer in the regular season and as worthless as A-rod in the real season. But regardless, MJ still owns the most scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's records and KB's records. Not ever close. Again, MJ retired as the greatest playoff performer ever which is where he solidified himself as the greatest ever. It's not repugnant to say someone is better than MJ. It's just impossible and we can back that all day with numbers. Best, xxxxxx Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS. - Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12 - Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4 - Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 - Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4 - Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3 - Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0 - Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10 - Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7 - Most 50 point games: Wilt 118 - Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8 - Most 40 point games: Wilt 271 - Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 39 - Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4 - Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7 - Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2 - Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7 - Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3 - Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14 - Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5 - Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6 - Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4 - Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33 - Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65 - Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11 - Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9 - Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126 - Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60 - Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 29 - Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866 - Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23 - Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23 - Highest scoring game: Wilt 100 - Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63 - Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61 - Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58 - Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42 - Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31 - Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69 - Most points in one half: Wilt 59 - Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39 - Most points in one half finals: MJ 35 - Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24 - Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33 - Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29 - Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25 - Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20 - Most points in OT: Arenas 16 - Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13 - Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer, Ainge tied at 9 - Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38 - Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40 FULL MJ/KB RECORDS LIST: KOBE: NBA Regular-season records Kobe holds: -All-rookie game (now defunct): 31 points NBA Regular-season records Kobe Shares: -Most 3 pointers in one game: 12 (shared with 1 player) -Most 3 pointers in one half: 8 (5 players) -Most consecutive 3 pointers: 9 (2 players) -Most free throws made in one quarter: 14 (5 players) -Most free throws attempted one quarter: 16 (6 players) NBA Playoff Records Kobe holds: -NONE NBA Playoff Records Kobe Shares: -NONE NBA Finals records Kobe holds: -NONE NBA Finals records Kobe Shares: -NONE MJ: NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds: -Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10 -Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg -Most consecutive points, one game: 23 -Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10 -Most consecutive seasons leading league in field goal attempts: 10 -Most free throws made, one-half: 20 -Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring: 866 -Most blocks by a guard: 131 -Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7 -Highest career PER: 27.91 -Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts) -Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts) NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares: -Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring: 7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain) -Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied with Malone) -Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (twice, tied with 5 other players) -Most seasons leading the league in steals: 3 (tied with two others) NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds: -Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg -Record Total points: 5987 -Record Most FTS made: 1463 -Most points playoffs, one-game: 63 -Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs. Miami, 1992) -Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs. Cleveland, 1988) -Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series: 53 (vs. Miami, 1992) -Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86 (vs. Philadelphia, 1990) -Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101 (vs. Phoenix, 1993) -Most consecutive 50pt games: 2 -Most consecutive 45pt games: 3 -Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60 -Most free throws made, one quarter: 13 -Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14 -Most 50 point games: 8 -Most 40 point games: 39 -Most consecutive points: 23 NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares: -Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May 1, 1988; tied with two others) -Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6 (first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four others) NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds: - Highest Scoring average: 33.6 -Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix, 1993) -Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs. L.A. Lakers, 1991) -Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs. Phoenix, 1993) -Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers, 1991) -Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs. Phoenix, 1993) -Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11, 1993 to June 18, 1993) -Most consecutive 30 point games: 9 -Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22, 1991 to June 1997) -Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3, 1992) -Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA) -Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle) -Most Finals MVPs: 6 NBA Finals records Michael Jordan shares: -Most field goals made, one-half: 14 (vs. Portland, June 3, 1992 and vs. Phoenix, June 16, 1993; tied with Isiah Thomas) -Most three-pointers made, one-half: 6 (vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with Kenny Smith) -Most free throws made, one-quarter: 9 (at Utah, June 11, 1997; tied with Frank Ramsay) -Most free throws attempted, one-half: 15 (at Utah, June 4, 1997; tied with Bill Russell) MJ/KB Awards: ..............................KB....MJ Scoring Titles.......1.....10 1St NBA Team......4.....10 1st Defense..........4.....9 Steals Title............0.....3 MVPs......................0.....5 Rings.....................3.....6 NBA Finals............4.....6 Finals MVPs.........0.....6 PER Titles............0.....7 Olympic Golds.....0.....2 DPOYS..................0.....1 ROYS....................0.....1 Totals...................16....66 Kobe must score 36ppg for the next 9 years to catch MJ's record 30.1ppg Kobe must score 46.6ppg in his next 100 playoff games to catch MJ's record 33.4ppg.
Kobe has quite a few things in common with Jordan. They are both overrated; Kobe is not the best playing in the NBA now, and Jordan is not the best player in NBA history. Neither one seems like a very good person off the court. Both of them cheat/cheated on their wives (though Jordan didn't rape anyone that I can recall). Both of them benefit from the refs. Both of them seem really fake with the press.
All we can really do to evaluate the players is what they do no the court. IMHO you could make the argument that Kobe is indeed the most talented player right now-even better than Dwayne Wade. As far a Jordan- I never was a fan - but most consider him to ge the greatest player of all time. I guess the closest to him would be Oscar Robertson..... I do not know how to evaluate the off court stuff when you are talking about pure play ability in basketball...... With all due respect- I understand & appreciate your perspective
As I said, assists are dependant on your teammates acutally MAKING the shot. Kobe may make the same pass, but b/c his teammates miss or don't take the shot, he doesn't get credited with the assist. Also, I'm not suggesting that one was better than the other, I'm merely saying that the disparity between the two is not as what people describe it as. Kobe is a great offensive player, and it is reasonable to make that comparison. Remember, Kobe is only 28. He still has time. So we should reserve our judgement until then.
You're right. T-mac should be avg almost 12 assists if we didn't miss so many open shots or wide open layups. But does that mean that T-mac is not a good play maker? No. In fact he is a much better playmaker than Kobe, Wade, and Lebron, and yet his averages only speak of slight advantage. It's true that you can't argue with stats, but we have inducted hall of famers that never put up impressive figures, yet their impact is felt and known. So would that be equivalent to making excuses for their stats?
I hope everyone reads through the post above, it's a great post and worth your time if you EVER even entertained the idea of comparing Kobe or any other modern day wingman to Jordan. Even if you're arguing pure stats, look at the stats above and it will restore your sanity. Jordan was by FAR the greatest wingman ever, and I doubt we will ever seen anyone like him again. Shoots an insanely high % from the field, plays relentless defense, the definition of clutch, holds numerous records most of which were in the playoffs, etc. Great post, McGradySNKT. Thanks for sharing...
Just a few great games now Kobe is better than MJ?? I dont know MVP is decided on merely 5 games in a 82 games season and i dont know that you can consider a player with TWO great seasons and terrible playoffs, greatest player in the league history! Where are all those kobe wankers when the lakers are on 7 games losing streak???
There lies the problem. You are too young to understand what basketball used to be like before it was marketed to the casual fan.
One more thing. If basketball was only about scoring then Dominique Wilkins would have been a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer and would be known as one of the 5 or 10 (at worst) best players of all time.
now by NO MEANS am I saying Nique was an all-time great in the realm of Michael, Larry, Magic, Hakeem, etc. BUT he should have been a first ballot hall-of-famer. No doubt.
