In the end, Should we really be surprised that the Astro bats are crumbling now

OK, I'm disappointed right now, however, I think all the disappointment I have has either been used or saved up with this debacle, the OU game on Saturday, the Packers not making the playoffs, and the Rockets not getting Marc Jackson. I just don't have room for what seems to be the inevitable. If that doesn't make me a real fan, then I don't think people who defend those who boo are real fans either.

dylan, are you serious about the Clinton thing? I honestly couldn't find one attorney, from the most liberal to the most conservative at the law firm who said they would waste their time pursuing that case if the guy's name hadn't been Clinton. I've actually changed my views on that a little since it happened, but that's for another thread.

 

hehe, not to derail this too much more but since a troll started it I don't feel too bad...

Yeah, I'm trying to say I agree with you. My perception was that if you purjured yourself and you were a lawyer then you were disbarred pure and simple. Same thing for the Supreme Court. If, in fact, that is not true and lawyers frequently get away with it (which is bad but a topic for another time) then I dont really care that Clinton got away with it. Make sense?

 

<B>I just don't have room for what seems to be the inevitable. </B>

So if the Astros do make the playoffs, you don't care if they win or not once they get there?

If you do, then you have to -- by definition -- be disappointed if they lose. Either that, or you wouldn't be excited if they win.

 

I'll be happy if I get to go to the Rockets' first game, but I won't be disappointed if I don't. I'll be happy if it rains today, but I won't be disappoited if it doesn't. I'll be estatic if I could eat Outback Steakhouse everyday for the rest of my days, but I won't be disappointed if I can't. I'll be estatic if the Dave Matthews Band new live CD is the best ever, but I won't be disappoited if it isn't. I'll be glad if Tampa Bay doesn't win another football game all year, but I won't be disappointed if they do. I'll be happy if Baylor beats A&M this weekend, but I won't be disappointed if they lose. I'll be happy if I get to spend Christmas with everyone I love, but I won't be disappointed if I don't. I'll be happy if I get a new bedliner for my truck, but I won't be disappointed if I don't. I really, really want the NHL Live 2002 for PS2, but I won't be disappointed if I never play it. I really, really, really want the Astros to win the World Series, but at this point, I won't be disappointed if they don't.

 

Actually, a more relevant "definition" would be that it's impossible to be disappointed at something, when the outcome was already inevitable.

For example, I think the movie <I>Riding in Cars With Boys</I> will suck ass much like the Astros' fans last night. Therefore, there is no possible way I can walk away from that movie feeling disappointed. However, I can walk away excited that I just saw a great movie.

I think the Astros' bats will collapse in the playoffs this year. Therefore, I can't be disappointed when that inevitability occurs. However, I can be excited if it doesn't.

That's a little better than your "you have to be disappointed if you'd be excited" definition.

 

Good thing you guys weren't around when the Astros <b>REALLY</b> stunk in the '70's

 

Most of your examples are not either-or situations.

For example, the DMB CD. There's a range of possibilities -- it could be great, good, mediocre, or suck. Each would give you a different range of emotions. If it sucks, you'll be disappointed, as you were the first day of getting the last CD.

With the Outback Steakhouse -- you could go everyday, somedays, rarely, or never. If you never go there again, you'd probably not like it. Same thing.

Examples with multiple outcomes don't really fit this situation because there's a range of possible emotions.

The examples that do fit, though, did work. Baylor vs. A&M. You wouldn't be disappointed if Baylor lost, but that's because you're not a Baylor fan in the way you're a UT or Astros or Rockets or Packers fan.

<B>Actually, a more relevant "definition" would be that it's impossible to be disappointed at something, when the outcome was already inevitable. </B>

I can agree with this. It also applies to the A&M game, more-or-less. However, that's not the case with the Astros. They still have the best record in the NL. It's not "inevitable" that they will lose in the playoffs. If it were, you wouldn't bother watching them.

<B>For example, I think the movie Riding in Cars With Boys will suck ass much like the Astros' fans last night. Therefore, there is no possible way I can walk away from that movie feeling disappointed. </B>

Sure you can. You're going in hoping that by some miracle it will be a decent movie, even though you don't expect it. When your hope doesn't come true, that's disappointment.

 

<B>LOL. They can't take criticism over at the TZ. If you blast the Astros, they will blast the poster back. </b>

Yeah, they have serious 'clique' problems at TZ.

Bottom line on "fans" to me is that they have to care if their teams win or lose -- that's it. But caring works both ways -- you can't be excited that they win and not care if they lose. You're disappointed when they lose. That's just a part of being a fan (in my opinion).

 

I guess the best way to put it is that I'm already disappointed in them. If they lose, that's what I'm expecting...I can't add any more disappointment to what I'm already feeling.

To me, a real fan is one that doesn't boo or condones booing when the team is doing what is best to win.

 

this is embarrassing,

yes as fans we get frustrated when we lose but give me a break, some of you act as if we are the worst team ever assembled, if you are looking for that go to baltimore or somewhere else

I also hear how the offense has sucked every game, guys do go into slumps, its not like they can preconceive it happening if they could you would never see them. Plus i believe Saturday we scored 6 runs and a rare bad performance by dotel blew the game.

Let me say, im an optimist but im also a realist, thus i understand st.louis is using our pitching injuries and the absurd difference in our various strength of schedules at the end of the year to catch up. It bothers me to see the crazy extremist views like because of a bad stretch people think we may get shut out of the postseason mix, the point of a fan is supporting a team through thick and thin and while being frustrated is a part of it, it is a minor aspect and the bigger aspect of being a true fan is supporting a team when they are red hot or when they are ice cold.

Overall, I think we will be in the playoffs and if we can get ROY back healthy we can get to the World Series, but if we dont while ill be disappointed making the playoffs is nothing to be ashamed about, only one team can take home the grand prize.

 

Again, I never once questioned your fandom or lack thereof. Well I maybe did indirectly when I said "at least GB has a team" or something like that but that was an exageration (sp?) I will readily admit.

Calling you an ******* may be weak but how's this: your online persona is an *******. That any better? Or gee, if it really makes you feel better, you're not an *******. You just make a lot of asinine posts. Let's see, over the last, oh, 3 months you have made ONE post that is at all positive about the Astros. I didn't check back earlier than that becaue you said in your own words on 09-03-01 that "Yes, I know that I blasted the Astros many times early in the season". So we'll call it one positive post in one year. So where is the "over and over", or "numerous posts" of which you speak? Is the BBS search feature broken? Must be...

Again, please answere one question: why did you make your post? What was the point? Especially since you posted almost the exact same thing yesterday? All you wanted to do was be smug and superior. It just gets old reading the same **** over and over again...

 

fan2 (fn) n.
An ardent devotee; an enthusiast.

cheer·lead·er (chîrldr) n.
One who expresses or promotes thoughtless praise; an adulator.

A real fan doesn't have to always agree with the team or praise its players & management. A real fan is a devotee of his team, one who roots for the team to do well. But to me, in order to be "ardent" a real fan has to have some sort of vested emotional tie to the team - happy when they win, upset when they lose. Otherwise you're a cheerleader.

As for myself, I am extrordinarily happy with the performance of our young pitching staff this season. They've been terrific and have shown that good pitchers can perform well in Enron just like they can in any other park not named Coors Field. The play of the bullpen and the 5th, 6th, and 7th starters this year filling in for injuries has been outstanding. I have been disappointed in the combined effort of our offense in the second half of the season. It's not a mini-slump, it's a drought that has continued for almost 3 months. Even during our recently-ended winning stretch, it was consistantly good pitching and not hitting that was the cause. With a lineup of Bagwell, Berkman, Alou, Biggio, Hidalgo, and Castillo, playing in a hitter's ballpark. there is absolutely no way we should struggle on a consistant basis to score runs.

 

You can lose and have a moral victory. There doesn't always have to be dissapointment when losing. If I'm rooting for a marathoner to win a race, as a fan, and he cramps up in the middle race, but still finishes a distant second. I'm excited for him. He didn't win, but it didn't matter, because I knew he gave everything he had to give. That's something I'm proud of. Don't parents get these type of feelings.....

 

I am one of the biggest Astros fans in the world. I've posted nothing but optimism (as far as I can recall) for a long time here about my favorite sports franchise (sorry Rockets!). However...to gloss over one of the worst late season collapses in modern baseball history is silly. This team had a 5.5 game lead with 12 games to play and it slipped away last night. Will they still make the playoffs?? It's likely. But unfortunately they're not really set up well for the playoffs. And they're certainly not set up real well to match up with Johnson and Schilling in a short series.

What we're seeing is consistency from this team. As much as it pains me to say it, when the games REALLY mean something...when the pressure is on...when they play what we would all define as a "big game"...this group of Astros falls short. And they don't just fall short...they fall flat on their faces. Forget the fact that they're one of the best offensive teams in the league --- they're anything but that when games really matter. It kills me to say that. Where the Rocks in their championship runs stepped up when they needed it most, the Astros fall further. They don't play above themselves (as the Rocks did) or even to their capabilities...they play below them. The only conclusion is that it is deeply psychological at this point. Combine this collapse with the collapses in 95 and 96 and you have one of the biggest underachieving MLB teams in our lifetimes. Combine it with the pitiful performances in the playoffs and it looks just silly.

I'm still rooting for them...and it still hurts like hell to watch them lose!! But I can't ignore the fact that this team is participating in a massive choke-job right about now....and the fact that such choke-job is entirely consistent with the performance of this team over the course of the last 6 or so years.

Phi Slamma -- your analogy is a good one...however,this Astro team isn't losing now because of injury. They're not hitting worth a flip, and I don't think having Oswalt would change that. That third game of the Cardinals series was a joke. They made two errors (one leading to a run) and scored one run (an 8th inning solo shot by Bags). They did not come to play that game. Their team batting average has dropped sharply...they may be trying..and I can appreciate that...but ultimately that might not be good enough. Am I happy for them??? Why would I be?? I'd like to think they're not really happy for themselves either. Professionals shoot for being nothing but the best...it is certainly in their capacity to win this division and win the league pennant...but they've clammed up.