What naivete. Some of you always believe whatever the president tells you about foreign policy. I guess it is comforting. Even after Vietnam and the stage Gulf of Tonkin incident. Even after Whitewater, Iran Contra (Remember the cocaine for the contras connection etc.), Waco, Bill Clinton's lies (Here you do believe that he personally executed 100's in his home state of Arkansa despite his denials. Even after wagging the dog The false hype equating Sadam Hussein's army with Nazi Germany's (just a duck shoot of tanks on the open road and the bulldozing of a bunch of Iraqi conscripts who were in 18 inch fox holes. The overhype of Soviet power by the CIA. Oh well maybe it's just like a football coach trying to make himself look good by saying a victory over Podunk U. will be the greatest victory in the history of Big State U. A bold prediction: Small groups will continue with murderous hatred of us around the world as they always have and most of the world will disprove of our unjust foreign policies. frequently voting against us in the UN on our environmental ,human rights and other policies. After getting Bin Laden and a few others, maybe even Sadam if public support holds, we will declare that the rest of the effort is being done with great success but no details can be given due to the need for secrecy. Per the usual after many many billions of additonal defense spending we'll remain silent about the unexpected weakness of the supposedly diabolical and strong enemy. We'll then carry on as usual.
that was not the first time he's rallied against the aclu and any groups that they might... shall we say, "harbor." the people responsible for these attacks would tell you that yes, in fact, they do. and therein lies my problem with falwell's comments. what if one of his followers had heard his comments blaming the abortionists and gays, and turned their anger toward gays? might statements such as falwell's put at risk the people he's targeting much the same way the attacks have compromised the lives of arab-americans? and we've seen how some of the religious right deals with those who would dare defy god, and it's not always peaceful prayer and teachings. just ask mathew sheppard. falwell's comments were reckless and irresponsible, ill-timed and self-serving. rather than practice tolerance, falwell assigned blame. and that's what he always does. he uses tragedies to push an agenda that indirectly blames certain groups for society's ills, turning his followers against said groups. again, this is the same place where the attackers started from; it's the place hitler started from, the place where KKK members start from... where they go from that place is likely up to the individual involved. for some, it doesn't stop until there's bloodshed. i never put falwell in that category. ever, never. i simply attempted to to look at the root of hatred.
Ric: "the people responsible for these attacks would tell you that yes, in fact, they do. and therein lies my problem with falwell's comments." RR: Who cares what they claim; they are murderers so lying is not going to bother them... nor is being deluded going to be evident to them. Ric: "what if one of his followers had heard his comments blaming the abortionists and gays, and turned their anger toward gays? might statements such as falwell's put at risk the people he's targeting much the same way the attacks have compromised the lives of arab-americans?" RR: what if... what if... what if.... what if one of your "followers" here reads your comments and goes and assasinates Falwell? You can't be responsible for every nutcase out there-- unless you are seeking to claim responsibility, like Bin Laden has many, many times. Which abortion clinic bombings has Falwell laid claim to? Ric: "and we've seen how some of the religious right deals with those who would dare defy god, and it's not always peaceful prayer and teachings. just ask mathew sheppard." RR: what denomination were those guys????? Yeah, they left the Methodist Youth Group went to a bar and brutally killed a gay guy.... really? Did they have Falwell brochures in their pickup truck? Ric: "falwell's comments were reckless and irresponsible, ill-timed and self-serving. rather than practice tolerance, falwell assigned blame. and that's what he always does. he uses tragedies to push an agenda that indirectly blames certain groups for society's ills, turning his followers against said groups. again, this is the same place where the attackers started from; it's the place hitler started from, the place where KKK members start from... " RR: Falwell's comments were not self-serving; they serve his ministry. Jerry pushes his agenda all the time; everyone uses the heightened awareness brought on by a national tragedy to "push" their agenda. We even heard from Harry Browne of the Libertarian Party recently. What do you mean when you say "turning his followers against said groups?" I bet Falwell said that we should love those homosexuals. Did Hitler say that about the Jews? Or did Bin Laden say that about the 6000 Americans he had just killed? Ric: "where they go from that place is likely up to the individual involved. for some, it doesn't stop until there's bloodshed. i never put falwell in that category. ever, never. i simply attempted to to look at the root of hatred." RR: You characterize him as .006 (six thousandths of one percent) different from Bin Laden (2 degrees). You accuse him of hate, yet show no hateful actions nor depict hateful speech. I've done a lot more to contrast him to Bin Laden than you have or could do to compare him to Bin Laden.
I know you were joking, but I am an Episcopalian and I don't drink ! I didn't really care for this attempt of comedy.
Rocketman95, I would call Ali a coward for not fulfilling his obligation to this country as well. My father DID fulfill his obligation, and I have zero respect for anyone who ducked any draft. Zero !! DaDakota PS. Never liked Ali anyway, he was hated by as many that revered him, and most have softened their stance on him because he has parkansense(sp?). Of course you would not know that, you are only 25 !
Oh, and Glynch, I doubt I am going to make a significant dent in any of your arguments, as you are so far to the left that you are out of the baseline my brother. So, I will not even bother. DaDakota
oh, i see... the terrorists are delusional, but falwell couldn't possibly be. RR, with all due respect, this is simply ridiculous. are you honestly implying that my comments have to be held to the same standard as jerry falwell's? that my comments reach and influence the same number of people? and for what has to be the one millionth time, i've never accused falwell of partaking in, or calling for violent action. but he should know comments that blame abortionists or gays for acts they had nothing to do with it is reckless and potentially dangerous. they oppose homosexuals for the same reasons falwell does. but, as i've stated repeatedly, they act upon their hatred, falwell does not. but they have more in common than you seem to believe. and whom, do you think, is being served by falwell's ministry? slow up a bit, the answer is not god. and blanket statements such as "everyone uses the heightened awareness brought on by a national tragedy to "push" their agendas." doesn't serve your argument well. care to name others who have pushed their agendas, and done so in a manner as controversial as falwell's? the ones who do actually use such events are usually self-serving, egomanical button-pushers... like falwell. it's a bet you'd lose -- i mean, have you even read falwell's comments? RR, he blamed the attacks on the aclu, mentioning specifically the abortionists and gays that the aclu defends. their lack of morals forced god to punish us by not stopping the attacks. it wasn't said in so many words, but that was the jist. i didn't know we'd be breaking out a protractor and breaking down the literal definition of a degree. and for what has to be the one millionth time, you keep comparing and contrasting falwell to bin laden -- i do not, nor have i ever except in response to you bringing him up. i'm talking about the foundation of hatred. you're leaping to it's conclusion, trying to take my arguement to places i never intended. no, falwell, has no blood, directly or indirectly, on his hands. but like the terrorists, he uses his self-righteous interpretation of his religion to preach a dignified, but nonetheless hurtful form of discrimination and hatred. that he prays for the souls he discriminates and hates doesn't lessen his message.
ric: "oh, i see... the terrorists are delusional, but falwell couldn't possibly be." RR: We should be worried about delusional people who have murder on their mind. If Falwell was delusional would virtually every network seek him out as a spokesman for the Christian community. ric: "RR, with all due respect, this is simply ridiculous. are you honestly implying that my comments have to be held to the same standard as jerry falwell's? that my comments reach and influence the same number of people?" RR: I am pointing out that neither you nor Jerry Falwell can bear responsibility for someone who wrangles meaning to suit their own purposes just as the true peace-loving Islams can't be held responsible for the perturbations of Bin Laden. ric: "they (Shepard's murderers) oppose homosexuals for the same reasons falwell does. but, as i've stated repeatedly, they act upon their hatred, falwell does not. but they have more in common than you seem to believe." RR: How do you know what their values were. They weren't members of The Lambs of God, were they?. They were two punks and for you to align them with Reverand Falwell just to try and prove your point is dishonest. ric: "and whom, do you think, is being served by falwell's ministry? slow up a bit, the answer is not god." RR: Did God tell you that?! ric: "and blanket statements such as "everyone uses the heightened awareness brought on by a national tragedy to "push" their agendas." doesn't serve your argument well. care to name others who have pushed their agendas, and done so in a manner as controversial as falwell's?" RR: How about every one of the talking heads that we see on news shows every night THROUGHOUT primetime. Falwell has been on considerably less than most of them. Bill Maher does so every night and his manner certainly was controversial. ric: "the ones who do actually use such events are usually self-serving, egomanical button-pushers... like falwell." RR: Falwell has been a spokesman on new events for two decades or more. He is not USING this event; he has consistently been a spokesman for two decades. You make it sound like he is newly capitalizing on this tragedy. ric: "it's a bet you'd lose -- i mean, have you even read falwell's comments? RR, he blamed the attacks on the aclu, mentioning specifically the abortionists and gays that the aclu defends. their lack of morals forced god to punish us by not stopping the attacks. it wasn't said in so many words, but that was the jist." RR: it is your right to disagree with his worldview. Did he proclaim a "crusade" on the lives of ACLU-members, gays, and abortionists? ric: "i didn't know we'd be breaking out a protractor and breaking down the literal definition of a degree." RR: It was YOUR grossly misleading description... not mine. I pointed that out and you argued with it. ric: "and for what has to be the one millionth time, you keep comparing and contrasting falwell to bin laden -- i do not, nor have i ever except in response to you bringing him up." RR: Did you or did you not say he was "one or two degrees" different? By definition, that IS a comparison and you made it. ric: "i'm talking about the foundation of hatred. you're leaping to it's conclusion, trying to take my arguement to places i never intended. no, falwell, has no blood, directly or indirectly, on his hands. but like the terrorists, he uses his self-righteous interpretation of his religion to preach a dignified, but nonetheless hurtful form of discrimination and hatred. that he prays for the souls he discriminates and hates doesn't lessen his message." RR: the basis of hatred is usually fear. I can guarantee you that Falwell doesn't fear the ACLU, gays, or abortionists. What foundation of hatred are you possibly talking about? That he prays HUGELY DISAVOWS the portrayal you would make of him.
Well, I know I totally respect my Dad. He did duck the draft (in a sense). He didn't leave the country or claim religious exemption, but he tried everything else. In the end, he just lucked out, because he was drafted, but was never called. Hard to explain: First, he said he was a drug user. They said, no problem. Then, he said he was gay. They said, no problem. He tried many other excuses, but finally acquiesced and only asked that they not take him until his wife gave birth to their first kid (me). They obliged, but never called him back. WWII, the U.S. did not join in the fight against Nazi Germany until we were attacked on American soil. Vietnam was totally different. Not only were we fighting a war against a country no one knew much about, but those in power did not feel that winning the war was in our best interest. Vietnam never attacked us, so why should we go attack them? We have once again witnessed an attack on U.S. soil. If I were to be drafted (I found out that I'm out of the age bracket), I would go, no problem. Had I been drafted (if I were old enough) for Vietnam, I most likely would've tried to get out of it. If you don't respect me or my dad, well, too bad.
RichRocket, You probably don't want my advice, but that's the good thing about the U.S. and this BBS, I'm gonna give it to you anyways. You should choose your battles a little more carefully. I am a Christian. I have very strong beliefs. Jerry Falwell said some atrocious things that he should not have. When he said them, he said them as a representative of my faith. He misrepresented me and millions other Christians horribly. He did indeed retract the statement, but that doesn't change the fact that millions of people heard him. There are people who are not Christians who now have a lower opinion of all Christians because of Jerry Falwell. There are Christians who now feel uneasy about claiming their faith, because of what Jerry Falwell said. He is an idiot. He harbors hate. I don't care who he prays for or who he "tries to save", but what he said was inexcusable. I can forgive him. I'm supposed to, but I still realize that what he said has a bigger impact than, for instance, what I say on this BBS. I'd love for more homosexuals to become Christians, but with people like Jerry Falwell around, it's not a mystery why they don't.
Thanks for the advice, DREAMer, but even Jerry Falwell deserves to be defended if he is misrepresented. I have more faith in people than to think that they think any one person is a spokesman for all of Christianity. I take what any man says with a grain of salt. He apologized for his expressions. Let's use our imagination in a way other than figuring out how to discredit Falwell. He is, after all, a Christian brother-- imperfect as he may be. I don't agree with Falwell on a lot of things, but I can't stomach these attacks on his character. Lumping him in with people like Bin Laden was just too absurd to ignore.
are you really this naive? it's a two-way street: they get a ridiculous, over-the-top, sure-to-push-buttons quote from falwell and he gets his name and ideology plastered all over the media. don't think for one second him being sought by the media is a virtue of any respect he's garnered, or that he's an innocent in any of this. he has spokespeople who ensure he's contacted. and one more thing i want to point out, and this is very important: falwell's opinion was not sought after these attacks. even the media knew giving him a soapbox at this point and time would be inappropriate, because, as i previously pointed out, he's nothing more to them than a pot-stirrer. falwell's comments this time around were made on the 700 club, rr, not in response to media inquiries. I am pointing out that neither you nor Jerry Falwell can bear responsibility for someone who wrangles meaning to suit their own purposes just as the true peace-loving Islams can't be held responsible for the perturbations of Bin Laden. falwell has a following that likely reaches into the millions. thus, he has to be especially cautious about what he says in times like these, when tension and emotion are running as high as humanly possible. the last thing he needs to do is whip up a furor over his old enemy the aclu. the aclu had NOTHING to do with this tragedy. to try and drag them into it is self-serving and pitiful, a desperate attempt to use others suffering as a means to push his agenda -- it's indefensible. that you're even trying makes me wonder about you. How do you know what their values were. They weren't members of The Lambs of God, were they?. They were two punks and for you to align them with Reverand Falwell just to try and prove your point is dishonest. you know what? i was generalizing here -- bad example, i'll retract and move on. Did God tell you that?! yes How about every one of the talking heads that we see on news shows every night THROUGHOUT primetime. Falwell has been on considerably less than most of them. Bill Maher does so every night and his manner certainly was controversial. what talking heads, rr? rather than continuing to make blanket statements, how about offering up some concrete examples. as for bill maher, his comments weren't about the tragedies, and certainly didn't exploit them. he made a comment about past military operations, rr. he's not a relevant example. Falwell has been a spokesman on new events for two decades or more. He is not USING this event; he has consistently been a spokesman for two decades. You make it sound like he is newly capitalizing on this tragedy. see above. he went on the 700 club -- no media outlet asked him his opinion, rr. it is your right to disagree with his worldview. Did he proclaim a "crusade" on the lives of ACLU-members, gays, and abortionists? no, but he tried to inexplicably blame them for an event they had nothing to do with it -- how is that even the least bit helpful, rr? the only thing that could possibly come of such a deperate stunt is to bring anger upon the aclu and the groups they support. do you not see how explotive that is? 6,000 lives lost? seems like an idea time to blame the aclu! Did you or did you not say he was "one or two degrees" different? By definition, that IS a comparison and you made it. no, i did not. here what i said: "jerry falwell is not a politician -- he's a media w**** who practices hate only 1 or 2 degrees removed from the same hatred that fueled the terrorists." was bin laden one of the terrorists? the basis of hatred is usually fear. I can guarantee you that Falwell doesn't fear the ACLU, gays, or abortionists. What foundation of hatred are you possibly talking about? That he prays HUGELY DISAVOWS the portrayal you would make of him. he does fear the aclu -- it's been one of his targets for years (this isn't the first time he's gone after them). that he prays doesn't excuse him from making blanantly stupid comments that could potentially harm innocent people.
DaDa, I don't think you have answered this, but it has been directed to you before... Do you consider politicians who run (have run) this country who evaded war to be cowards? Bush, Clinton, Quayle, Cheney and others all either used their pull or resources to not go to war. If you do consider them cowards, how could you support anything they do militarily? Just curious, not trying to attack or corner you or anything.
Wasn't it FDR that said we were suddenly and ruthlessly attacked by the Empire of Japan, it is a day that will live in infamy, etc. All of this shortly before rounding up the Japanese and putting them into camps ala Nazi Germany's treatment of the Jews before they started the death camps?
You are correct Hydra. Here is a link to FDR's speech. It looks like he was whipping the country into a frenzy rather than take the "calm, soothing" approach: http://bcn.boulder.co.us/government/national/speeches/spch2.html
ric: YOU are the one who called him a "media w****" and then ridicule him for being minor league and for just being on the 700 Club and then, in the next breath, crack on him for influencing millions. Which is it? I agree that Falwell was not particulary sought out for the events. Not many people of faith were. By God, I think that Jesse Jackson just made it to the screen this very week. I don't know the names of all the talking heads; I see the faces-- the same ones week after week after week. One of the names I knew was Barbara Olsen-- who is tragically not with us anymore. Are you saying that they don't promote their agenda, the way that Jerry Falwell would or does? That is the real issue. Falwell does not fear the ACLU; he opposes them. Men of faith fear very little-- especially a political organization. Okay, so you said "one or two degrees removed (instead of different)." Big deal. That's a world of difference right there! BTW, I like your Houston Pro Football site. I'm ready to give this up; we'll never agree. I'll go another round or two if you want, but I don't really see the point. Your call.
yes, we can drop it, and thank you sincerely for the kind words about the site. good to know you can still be objective after all this. i truly appreciate it. before i let it go, a few quick clarifications -- no new arguments, just tying up loose ends: i never ridiculed falwell for being minor league, nor did i disparage the 700 club (i realize it has a very large and loyal audience). my point in bringing up his 700 club appearence was to show that he took the issue to the media, the media didn't come to him. IOW, unprovoked, he went on a widely-seen television show and blamed the aclu for the attacks on our country. maybe you were just unaware of the circumstances. in fact (and i'll admit, this is me specualting), he probably went on the 700 club precisely because no one was seeking his opinion, and wanted to grind his aclu ax. regardless, it was inappropriate, self-serving and grossly ill-timed. jerry falwell has never met a microphone he didn't like. ok, i'm done.
Can't resist: The 700 Club IS media; it's on television. Did he crash or was he invited? It's not "Nightline" but it has an audience. "Minor League" was my wording not yours. GO TEXANS !!
