Suns Lose to Hawks. Polish the MVP Trophy for Nash

I guess Nash will get the MVP every season, until he retires.

 

Hawks scored more in the 4th quarter than we did in the first half tonight.

 

But the problem is three MVPs in a row will make Nash a legend, one of the three guys all time.

Does he really deserve that status? I think many ppl will have questions.

 

holy ****ing **** i knew people (and by people i mean A_3PO) would say this after this.

when nash left the denver game the suns were down 9 at the half, then outscored denver by 14 in the second half on the road to win it. were you ready to take the trophy away from him after that?

they beat portland on the road without him as well. and tonight they score 111 and have a ridiculous offensive efficiency but lose b/c they refuse to play defense. so unless you're saying nash is their defensive mvp, which pretty much every stat since he's been there would say is wrong, then don't bring this weak, one game sample size argument in here.

where is nash in PER? #7 last i checked, behind wade, dirk, duncan, garnett, arenas and someone else, i think kobe. right about where he belongs. look in 82games.com for the production and net production stats and the roland rating. well behing guys like dirk and wade again.

and PER and i'm guessing roland rating are offensive stats, which helps nash even more. why are those stats not important to you? why does the fact nash doesn't rebound, play defense, or even be one of those bad defensive players who still gets steals not bother you? why does the fact he's a tremendous shooter and passer and gets to play on the only team where those facets of his game can be exploited to the max, where he has the most talent in the league to pass to (they scored 111 without him!), the fastest paced team to increase his numbers, and a team where he never faces a single double team and is often isolated on 7 footer who have no chance and who can't receive help because the other team is scared to death to leave the others. and on a team that has no backup point guard which always makes him look better when he's not playing. why does none of that factor in?



would any of the teams with starters for the western all-stars trade their player straight up for nash, even if age wasn't a factor? would we be better playing nash over tmac these last 20 or so games without yao? would miami be better w/ nash and not wade (didn't you just say you think wade's the best player in the league in the wade vs. dirk thread). the lakers w/ nash and not kobe? san antonio with nash and not duncan? dallas w/o dirk and with nash (well we know the answer to that one since dallas has become the best team in the league since trading nash, a fact seemingly always overlooked in the nash=God frenzy).


nash is a really good player who has had some incredible years, but his stats and performance in no way deserved an mvp in the previous 2 seasons and no one would've have even argued with a straight face they thought he was the best player in the league either year. and i don't think anyone would argue it this year or thinks he would be this great on anyone but the suns. so basically because his organization puts the perfect talent around him, we should just give him MVPs.

in an era with dwyane wade, lebron james, kobe bryant, tim duncan, kevin garnett, dirk nowitzki, etc why are we letting steve nash make them his b**** in MVP voting? we're supposed to look back in 20 years and say,

yeah son, nash ruled the league.

oh, so he was like jordan level and obviously the best player in the league?

well no, he was just really good, but there were others who were better.

well then he must've been the ultimate winner, racking up 3 straight titles?

well, no he didn't win the first 2 years and may not again this year.

oh, because his supporting cast was so weak? well no, 2 of them would be considered top 20 or 25 players in the league and the others were athletic 3 point shooters who could pass? another guy took a much lesser cast of players and single-handedly won a title, but he was no steve nash.

well then his stats were just crazy?

well, no he racked up assists like crazy and scored fairly well but he didn't play defense or rebound.

but i thought mvp's were usually great on both ends of the court and well-rounde.....

Look! he was just the best, OK! the mvp voters are too smart for us.

 

The Suns wont minding losing to the Hawks, as they get the hawks draft pick in the next draft. The suns will get it as long as it not 1, 2 or 3. The suns have 3 draft picks in one of the strongest years for awhile.
Their played 3 games without Nash, and lost 1, not too bad really.
Its good to see Amare prove he can still post nice numbers without Nash again thou.

 

If that's the criteria, then McGrady's the MVP, hand's down. Take McGrady away from the Rox and Nash away from Phoenix and which team wins more games????

McGrady's supporting cast is not as good as Nash's.

 

the problem is that Suns system is tailor made for Nash, the Suns have relied on him so much that once he goes down for multiple games they get lost for key stretches in games, and that's what gets magnified when compared to when he's in the lineup and they have the 2nd best record.

Is he up there with Michael, Larry, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, or Bill Russell? I personally don't think so especially since all of those guys have multiple rings and Nash hasn't even been to the finals yet.

 

except in PER (not lebron, but i don't think anyone is pimping him for mvp with his lackluster effort this year), and in production or net production or roland rating at 82games.com. and except in all-around stats. the only thing he's really good at is +/-, which is the most volatile and unreliable of those stats b/c it can tell you chuck hayes is better than yao ming and gilbert arenas is far and away the best player in the league.

do we just give nash the mvp every year he has at least 10 assists on the highest paced, most offensively talented team in the league for time immemorial? lets face it, the biggest difference b/t nash and stockton is that stockton's passes didn't end in ferocious dunks and alley oops or exciting 3's or fastbreaks. they both did the same thing. play in a nice system in which the point guard always handles the ball and makes almost all of the passes, allowing both to rack up assists. both ran pnr all the time and had to dissect the defense. and as much as people think nash scores unlike stockton, nash averaged the same these last 2 years (about 17 ppg) as stockton did for 4 or 5 years. and both played on similarly paced teams (the suns style now allowing them to have as many possessions as a slower late-80's team like utah). and on top of it all, flopton played D and got 3 steals per game. and utah won a lot. and somone will say there were so many great players back then. like there aren't now. like kobe didn't become only the 4th ever and first in about 20 years to put up 35 ppg while the lakers overachieve. like lebron wasn't the 4th ever with 30/7/6. or dwade wasn't dwade last year. or dirk didn't perhaps have the best statistical regular season of anyone last year. but no, lets just keep giving it to nash forever b/c the suns are fun to watch.

they beat the nuggets without him, beat the blazers without him, and now lost to atlanta w/ horrible defense. yes, they are worse w/o him, but your team damn well better even if you are merely good, much less great, much less mvp-worthy. have you seen miami with wade? i forget exactly, but for one stretch, it was something like they were 0-9 w/o him and 8-1 with him or something ridiculous like that. by all accounts, wade is the most valuable player to his team. why shouldn't he win it?


nash is one of the best offensive players in the league playing on the best offensive team in the league where every one of his strenghts is emphasized and every weakness is glossed over (no one cares how the suns play D or if nash doesn't) so he gets unfairly overrated. put him on the heat instead of wade and watch him face double teams with unreliable teammates to pass to. ask him to kill himself going to the basket all the time to get the free points his team needs to win and i don't see him handling it. put wade not the suns and the rest of the league might as well give up.

 

is that how they came from 9 down to win by 5 in the second half against denver in denver? was denver distraced by all the chicken without a head running they were doing?

right now they are 2-1 w/o him. that would be a 55 win team. but it's all stupid b/c it's such a small sample. they've played weak teams, but played 2 of 3 on the road. i think nash is coming back sunday so we're not gonna get more than a 3 game look. but saying they've sucked since then is silly. they scored right at their 111 ppg average tonight and had an even higher offensive efficiency than their season average. how are they chickens with their heads cut off? it appears they lost b/c they gave up 120, so i guess it's nash that holds that D together, based on one game and ignoring 2 others (where denver i think scored 48 in the half he didn't play vs 60 in the first half (the suns offense went from 51 to 62, maybe nash is holding the O back and helping the D!!!) and portland scored 96 or something in regulation).

feel free to do so. in terms of team record playing versus not playing, PER, production differential, plus/minus, roland ratings, the quintet of points/rebounds/assists/blocks/steals, nash is not the best or most valuable player. he just plays on a team with a really good record where he's the best player. that doesn't make him most valuabe league-wide, and it certainly doesn't cinch the award for him.

 

I know its crazy, but I think the MVP should go to the best player in the NBA.

I'm tired of this hippie mindset of the mvp makes his teammates better and leads them to great things.

That means no more Nash, and definitly no more Dirk. Dirk would not be able to beat any of the top 20 players in the NBA 1 on 1.

The mvp has to be kobe. He is putting up great numbers this year, and for you hippies his team is doing good too.

If you could have 1 player, it would not be dirk, it would not be nash, it would be kobe.

 

the most valuable player in the league is dwyane wade. and if you wanna go by the conventional almost the best player on almost the best team traditional standard, how can you start this thread when dirk would be the obvious answer? his stats are better, his team has a better record, and dallas has beaten phoenix both times. how are you gonna polish the trophy for nash when dirk has him in everything?

By the way, who would trade for who else doesn't matter either. It's about the impact of a player over the current year. It's more than stats, though stats are a big part of it. You have to watch players and how they impact their teammates. Nash's impact on the other Suns players is incredible. It's about who is clutch and makes plays in tight games. I could go on and on.[/quote]

well, when you trade presumably your primary concern is how they impact your teammates. tmac does more for the rockets than nash could and no one wants to give tmac the mvp. kg, td, and wade all impact their teammates more than nash. kobe does at least as much. passing a lot doesn't equal impact. watch kg impact all of the wolves on defense. or duncan make the spurs offense what it is. or wade will miami to wins they have no business getting.

maybe i'm wrong but i think you thought he was the mvp the last few years as well (or at least last year). if so, that seems to be part of a recurring pattern of giving nash mvp's he doesn't deserve. plus, it's always been a consideration in past votes. how do you think jordan only won 5?

it used to be about great players having career type years in years their teams had really good years. that's how hakeem, drob, shaq, barkley, ai, and karla (the first time) got theirs in between jordan years. now it just seems to be if nash averages 10+ assists and the suns score a lot, no one else need apply.

 

so do i. the best player is the most valuable player and the most valuable player is the best player. that encompasses everything. the guy whose complete game contributes the most to winning in any environment and not just who is on the best team or the best situation to shine.

and that's why i would give it to dwade, even though i like kobe more. i'd probably put dirk 2nd b/c he's been big in 4th quarters this year. i might put arenas tied with kobe at 3rd, then duncan and kg tied, then nash. i know, i know, blasphemy, but saying nash is 7th best isn't really a slight, it's just where he fits in. he's elevated himself from his dallas days but just not enough to be way up there with the rest. on any other team, he's probably not even in the conversation for most people, but the suns stand out for various reasons (nash among them) so it makes nash stand out.

***tmac's recent play would put hiim up there with probably arenas and kobe but his early season struggles and then missing 8 games make it hard to evaluate him.

 

i can agree.

nash is going to take them all the way to the WCF this year as well. and if the rox or mavs see them, it is going to be one hell of a fight simply because nash is the best damn pure point guard i have ever freaking seen. without nash, they might not even make it out of the first round.

most valuable player is nash. this isn't an award for best player, it's who can make their own team better just by being in there. there is no question in my mind that nash is the most valuable person to his TEAM.

beating the blazers is not an incredible feat. rox have crushed them. but as stated took them a good overtime to pull it out.

 

It IS the MVP of the REGULAR SEASON.

Nash has had very little post season success. But this is a regular season award.

He does NOT deserve to be up there in the category he will be if he wins the award again, but I don't see anyone better right now.

The award for BEST PLAYER could go to Kobe...but not MVP.

Nash is the MVP so far.

If you take Dirk away from the Mavericks - oh wait, there wouldnt' be enough data yet...

 

this is the clincher for me, he makes scrubs look like allstars. tim thomas was nothing before he got to phoenix, nash made him look like the second coming.

the only player on the suns who is really something and who can create his own shot regardless would be amare because he's so damn explosive.

before some of those guys played with nash, what the hell did they do?

 

There is no secret that Nash is the biggest factor in making that team what it is; he's not the only factor, but he is the most important one. I don't think anyone can deny that.

I wouldn't have any problem at all with him winning it again. However, I am quite confident (almost sure) that Irk will get it this season. The NBA will just decide to 'diversify' and give it to Karla Malone...errr...Dirk Flopitzki instead.

As for Wade and Kobe, their teams will have to do a bit better than they are now if they're even going to be considered for MVP trophy. The MVP trophy, traditionally, tends to go to the best player on one of the league's top teams, not mediocre teams struggling to stay afloat.