bagwell...best ever

He will be the best first baseman ever when it's all said and done, which in my mind, could qualify him as perhaps the best player to ever play the game.

 

Umm....yeah

He might be considered the best first baseman of all time, but arent you getting just a wee bit carried away by considering him for "the best player to ever play the game"?!?!

 

He is considered one of the best ever. The following is from ESPN. By the way, does any knowledgable baseball fan think McGuire is a better all around first baseman that Bagwell? I don't think so! So, I think Bagwell can safely be called one of the 5 or 10 best first baseman to ever play the game.

<b>
Monday, September 6
First basemen




By Rob Neyer
ESPN.com


First base means power, plain and simple. While managers may pay lip service to a first baseman's defensive skills, none of the all-time glove men at the position -- from Hal Chase and George Sisler to Keith Hernandez and Don Mattingly -- ranks at the top of anyone's "Greatest Ever" list.



No, the first basemen we remember are the guys who put the runs on the board. And nobody ever did it better than Henry Louis Gehrig.


Lou Gehrig
Gehrig is remembered for many things. He's remembered for playing in 2,130 straight games, a streak that earned him the nickname "Iron Horse." He's remembered for his farewell speech, the most famous speech any baseball player has ever made. And he's famous for the disease that killed him -- so famous, in fact, that in some quarters Amytrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS) is better known as Lou Gehrig's disease.


What's sometimes lost is that Gehrig was a great player, probably the greatest first baseman who ever lived.


"Columbia Lou" (as he was known early in his career) finished with awesome statistics, representing an awesome combination of batting average, power, and plate discipline. Gehrig won a batting title and finished with a .340 career batting average, he led the American League in home runs three times, and he topped the loop in RBI five times.


You know what's really scary about Gehrig? His career totals should have been much, much better than they were. Athletically incapacitated by the disease that would soon kill him, Gehrig retired early in the 1939 season when he was still only 35 years old. So it's fairly safe to assume that, absent the ALS, Gehrig had another three or four productive seasons left. Even without those "extra" seasons, though, The Iron Horse goes to the head of his class.


Jimmie Foxx
Gehrig's contemporary, Jimmie Foxx, was a fearsome hitter in his own right, and in a statistical sense the two were extremely similar. Both were everyday players for 14 seasons, including throughout the 1930s. Gehrig led the American League in on-base percentage or slugging percentage seven times, Foxx led in OBP or slugging eight times.

Foxx finished his career with 534 home runs, No. 2 on the all-time list (behind Babe Ruth, of course) for more than two decades. And even more than Gehrig, "Double X" was famous for his fearsome power. Hall of Fame pitcher Lefty Gomez once noted, "When Neil Armstrong first set foot on the moon, he and all the space scientists were puzzled by an unidentifiable white object. I knew immediately what it was. That was a home run ball hit off me in 1937 by Jimmie Foxx."


Hank Greenberg
Yes, another American League first baseman of the 1930s. These days, people rave about the concentration of shortstop talent in the AL, with Rodriguez, Garciaparra and Jeter all wowing fans around the country. But never has a position been so stacked as first base was in the American League of the late '30s. From 1934 through 1939, Indians first sacker Hal Trosky averaged 30 home runs and 127 RBI per season -- and didn't make a single All-Star team, because he had to compete for a spot with Gehrig, Foxx, and Tigers first baseman Hank Greenberg.

Greenberg's career percentages, .412 on-base and .605 slugging, don't suffer much by comparison to those of Gehrig and Foxx. However, Greenberg spent three-plus seasons in the U.S. Army during World War II, and then he retired at 36, even though he was still good enough to play. So while Greenberg's career totals don't stack up to those of his Hall of Fame peers, in his prime he was just a notch below those two, or perhaps just half a notch.


Willie McCovey
After World War II, there was something of a void at first base, perhaps fate's way of making up for the embarrassment of riches before the war. But in the 1960s, a group of fine first basemen emerged, including Norm Cash, Harmon Killebrew, Orlando Cepeda -- and the best of them all, Willie "Stretch" McCovey.


From 1965 through 1970, Giants first baseman McCovey was a more productive hitter than even Willie Mays and Henry Aaron. He led the National League in slugging percentage three consecutive seasons (1968-70), and in 1969 he set a still-standing record with 45 intentional walks.


Mark McGwire
In 1993 and 1994, Mark McGwire hit 18 home runs -- combined. Few, if any, great players have ever suffered through two seasons like those in the middle of their careers. But McGwire shunted aside those temporary roadblocks to greatness as if they were toothpick-shaped shortstops between him and second base. And after he hit 52 home runs in 1996 and 58 in 1997, many of us assumed it was just a matter of time.


McGwire would be the one to pass Roger Maris, who set the single-season record with 61 home runs, way back in 1961.


Of course, McGwire didn't "pass" Maris in 1998, he lapped him. Yet even now, nearly a year after the huge Cardinals slugger did the unthinkable, the number still doesn't look quite right in the record books ... 70.


And it wasn't just how many he hit, but also how far he hit them. People came from far and wide to see McGwire hit, and on the off chance that he wouldn't unload a titanic blast during the game, they came a few hours early to watch him launch them in batting practice. Nobody has been more excited to see a human hit a baseball since Babe Ruth and Josh Gibson left the earth more than half a century ago.


Postscript: Jeff Bagwell is still only 31, so we can't quite include him with the all-time greats yet. But if you consider his ability to hit, run and field with the best of them, Bagwell is perhaps the most complete first baseman ever, and in another four or five years he just might be up there pushing Foxx and even Gehrig. </b>

 

There is no way you could consider Bagwell the best of all time. The biggest reason is simply that he doesn't play a challenging defensive position. Don't get me wrong, he does play 1st base very well. But a gold glove 1st baseman is not worth a gold glove outfielder, shortstop, 2ndbase, etc.

So in our own generation you've got Barry Bonds who plays a tougher defensive position while putting up better numbers. I think Bagwell has a very good case for best 1st baseman when all is said and done. But you've got guys like Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Barry Bonds ahead of him for best all time. He does keep some damn good company though...

 

All "Bags" needs is one breakout playoff run & everyone will take note of him. I keep holding out hope that he will do that, & maybe this is the year. He's also coming up on 500 homeruns, isn't he?

I think that Bum Phillip's statement about Earl Campbell definitely applies to "Bags" as well. For those that are too young to know what that was, it went like this:

"He might not be in a class by himself, but it sure doesn't take long to call roll."

This might not be exact, but it's close enough.

 

<b>Timeline-August 31 1990</b>

<b>Redsox</b>-"We are interested in obtaining Larry Anderson from you"

<b>Astros</b>-"Ok, I reckon that kid on your double A team, Jeff Bagwell, would be a fair trade"(spits tobacco juice into a spitoon)

<b>Redsox</b>-"Then we have a deal?"

<b>Astros</b>-"Yes"(spits tobacco juice into a spitoon)

<b>Redsox</b> (After hanging up the phone and rolling on the floor laughing) "We got the closer we need to win the World Series for a minor league kid that probably won't make the major leagues"

 

IF Bagwell continues at his current pace for 4-5 more years he will hit 500 home runs and hit in the low .300's for a lifetime average. He'll both drive in and score around 1800 runs. The Runs and RBI numbers would put him in or close to the top 20 of all time. He'd be in the top 20 in HRs. He is currently 17th in lifetime OPS. All of those numbers certainly add up to Hall of Fame. (A World Series appearance or 2 wouldn't hurt). Based on his all around skills and numbers it wouldn't be too far fetched to consider him the best overall 1B of all time. The one thing that will separate him from the all time greats will be post season performance and results. He'd rank way down the list of all time greats.

 

I concur with Dylan. When shortstops exist with comparable power #'s, 1B's just aren't as valuable.

I do think Bagwell will end up as the greatest 1b of our time, although I'm sceptical about compariing across generations. The dead ball era doesn't exactly have much in common with today.

 

If Helton continues to hit the way he does for the next 5 or 6 years, Helton may be considered the best.

 

Fair or not, Helton will always have the stigma of hitting at Coors.

 

Bagwell is a great player and is a pretty sure bet for the HoF, but I think ya'll are getting carried away putting him among the all-time great 1st basemen like Gehrig or Foxx or McCovey, especially Gehrig.

Also, Bagwell might very well end up being considered the best 1st basemen of this era, but he will be far from being considered even the best player of this era. I don't think he will be considered as good as Jr., Bonds, A-Rod or Ripkin when they are done playing (won't take long for the last one). If you consider total O and D impact, you could make a tough case that Pudge or Jeter (2 more off the top of my head) are overall the better players as well.

Now Earl Campbell, in his prime there was only one running back you could make a pretty tight case for being better than him, that is Jim Brown. Bags is great, but Earl had legendary greatness.

 

Bagwell will need to do a 180 with his postseason failures.

If he can win at least one ring, that would boost him somewhere in the top 5 of all-time 1B.

McGwire is as one-dimensional as it gets.

Helton is solid, but he doesn't have the base running skills of Bagwell, nor does he have the glovework.

Helton might be a better "pure hitter", but his power isn't as good as Bagwell's, even with Coors. And 1B is considered a power hitting position. What is impressive with Helton is that he doesn't strike out that often.

Take him out of Coors, and Helton is a 25-30 HR guy. Which is good, but these days, might be considered close to average for 1B. Also, his average would be hovering the .300 mark. Which is sure good, but not great.

 

Especially when his home/road splits are so extreme. Here's the 3 year average for his home/road splits from 1998 to 2000:


HR RBI SO OBP SLG OPS

Home 63 224 78 .455 .690 1.145
Road 39 133 114 .371 .518 0.889

That 0.250 drop in OPS is pretty drastic...

He's still a great player and one of the best 1b's playing today but not an all time great.


Ahem: for those not capable of realizing this on their own the HR,RBI, and SO numbers are 3 years TOTALS, not AVERAGES...

 

Desert Scar, Ripken? Really?? I love Cal to death, but many of his years were very mediocre. He is certainly an above average player, but he is not a better all-around player than Bagwell. No way.

 

102 HRs a year? That's a pretty good three year average!

 

smartass. that's what's wrong with liberals. a conservative would be smart enough to realize what i was trying to say.

 

I can name 5 current players from the top of my head that are better than him. May be even more.

-ARod: no need to argue. Sure the guy is a greedy b*stard but nobody doubts his ability to play his position as well as he does.
He is only 26 years old.

-Chipper Jones: A lot like Bagwell but plays a more demanding position and he is only 29 years old.

-Ken Griffey Jr.: The guy is a great player, if not injuries, he would be well on pace to break Hank Aaron's all time HR record.

-Vladimir Gurrero: All i have to say is that he is only 25 years old.

-Sammy Sosa: For three straight seasons, he has hit 50 HRs or more, that could change to 3 years of 60 HRs .

Then there is Todd Helton, Andruw Jones, Manny Remirez, Nomar Garciapara to name a few more.

These are players that i would be happy to trade bagwell for one on one.

 

Helton averaged 102 home runs !?!?!?!? Man, that guy needs more hype. He plays in a small market. I don't have my glasses on.

Clutchdream, based on this year, I wouldn't trade Bagwell for Andruw Jones.

Besides, stats aren't everything and I think Jeff brings alot to the clubhouse.

 

Bagwell is clearly the better offensive player, but Cal 10-15 years ago had very good fielding numbers at the toughest defensive position, plus had very good power numbers too. If you also consider Cal's 20+ years of longevity, even if he has sucked the last couple of years, it will be hard for Bags to match him on the all-time great list.

If I were building a team based on the player with greater overall impact (assuming they were all entering at 22 years old), I would take Cal, Bonds, Piazza (considerably better hitting and slugging % than Bags), Garciaparra, Sosa, or probably Pudge Rodriguez before Bagwell, though it would be a tough call between these 7. With Jr (most dominant outfielder) or A-Rod (most dominant infielder), it would NOT be close though.

I would take Bagwell over Manny or McGuire or Frank Thomas or Andrew Jones in a heart beat though. Versus Edgar Martinez or Jeter or C. Jones would be an interesting comparison, but I'd probably go with Bags.