How bad does Rafer and JLIII have to play before you think VSpan deserves a shot?

NIKE: I think you are wasting your breath, but good luck.

 

You guys who think vspan was given a fair shot are just blind.

 

Wrong. I've gone over all the +/- analyses, and SamFisher has done the PERs. They're not even close.

As for your premise, let's take a look at Rafer's last few hundred minutes. VSpan's played 180 minutes; over the last 4 games, Rafer has played 170 minutes.

FG-FGA: 28-70, 40%
3P-3PA: 13-31, 41.9%
FTs: 10-14
Rebounds: 14
Assists: 28
Steals: 5
Turnovers: 11
Fouls: 10
Points: 79

In 10 less minutes, 1 more rebound, 7 less turnovers, 8 more assists, 1 less steal, 10 less fouls, 33 more points, and much better shooting percentages, with the exception of FTs.

Rafer wins virtually across the board. And this is with him playing like crap.

You
a.) Vastly underrate Rafer's shooting ability (and given how poor it is, that's pretty incredible) as least with respect to Spanoulis.
b.) Don't realize just how bad Spanoulis was in his playing time.

Rafer's been playing like garbage, but Spanoulis was worse. But feel free to live in whatever world you choose.

And with that, I'm taking Jeff's advice here.

 

You're obviously living in some fantasy world if you think Rafer has been anything, but terrible this year.

 

jopat- I didn't vote. As I've said, Rafer's play to me has no impact on VSpan getting a shot. And to me, it's not a percentages game for Lucas, either.

Lucas has certainly faltered of late. He played completely out of control in Phoenix (sadly, after a really promising start), and was subsequently benched. Right or wrong, JVG cares more about quality of shot than the result, based on the idea that consistent quality shots will eventually lead to makes (this is not to say an open jumper from Chuck Hayes is a quality shot). Lucas may not be good at setting others up, but in addition to being extremely safe with the ball, he is usually good about ridding himself of the ball and letting someone else make a play for himself or others.

Spanoulis started the year ahead of JL3, and that Phoenix performance might have been hideous enough to give Spanoulis a shot. I would use the same approach JVG used with Novak - there's things Spanoulis can do to show a commitment to the right way of playing under Van Gundy. With Novak, it wasn't a matter of desire - he was just damn clueless on defense, and nearly equally clueless on offense because he'd always been the man. Spanoulis is a much more naturally gifted athlete than Novak, but it looks to me like he just hasn't embraced JVG's approach (enter chorus of Gundy and his approach sucks here). I think the recent media back and forth may have opened up a dialogue, and maybe he can finally start to learn/apply what he needs to do.

To me, the question becomes if we acquire more veteran help before Spanoulis gets his shot.

 

I can't disagree more with at all with the nonsense about "rookies need to pay the due". I also didn't agree with one of JVG's statements that even Nowitzki and Tony Parker had to pay their dues during their rookie years - well, because they started most games during their rookie years. Granted, can't compare different players easily.

That said, I believe here are the real problems:

1. During pre-season, Vspan got to play PG. He tried to be fancy (maybe over confident). He had many great passes (Yao was elated with some of the PnR passes and assists to Yao), but he was also a turnover machine.

2. During the season, the ever-so-cautious JVG wanted to avoid turnover at all cost, hence decided to only play Vspan as spot-up shooter. Makes sense, as that should limit his TO. But then it is not a natural role for Vspan. He was never a great shooter, and he is unlikely to become a great shooter. We either use him as a PG, or not at all (trade him).

3. Don't want to say this out loud, but I have a feeling Rox management is seriously considering not renewing JVG's contract, hence they want to keep Vspan around, knowing that the next coach wil find better use for Vspan. But of course they can't tell Vspan out loud, and can only persuade him to calm down, that he is still very valued, blah, blah,...

Hmm ... silver lining here?

 

- Is there such thing as a good TO vs a bad TO?

How about bad, and really bad?

e.g.

tendency to get the ball stripped from you. really Bad. Hard to fix
passes that gets easily intercepted. really Bad. Hard to fix

palming. Bad. experience could fix.
zipping the ball through your teamates hands. Bad. experience could fix
passing to an open Deke for jumper. Bad. experience could fix
charging. Bad. experience could fix

Luther is probably in the first group and VSpan is in the 2nd. His TO's could be fixed w/ experience and play time whereas Luther's ballhandling would take more time and may not even be able to improve that much.


- How about fouls?

Is there such thing as a bad vs really bad fouls?

2 on 1 fast break with Vspan on defense.

- For Vspan, The result would be the opponent would have to earn the points at the free through line or forced TO.

Takes a charge. Good.
Fouls taking a charge. Good.
Takes the opponent out and they shoot 2 FT. Good.

- The same w/ Rafer.

The opponent walks in for a layup. No foul.
The opponent walks in for a layup and 1
The opponent takes a 3 and 1
Taking a charge? Forget it.

- One on one defense.
Takes a charge. good
goes for strips. good
goes for the steal. good

any of these actions could result in a foul, but it's aggressive defense, not dumb fouls.

He's fouling because he's aggressive in his defense, which I would take over watching the opponent drive past him and causing the big men having to cover his mistakes.

It's not like Vspan is fouling 3 pointers or stabbing at the ball because he's been beaten off the dribble.

 

man when both players break their legs jvg will run chuck hayes at pg than using vspan

 

Earth to fuzzy88... Earth to fuzzy88...

Do you REALLY think the team's management is going to dump the coach because they believe so strongly in their SECOND ROUND draft pick who wasn't even one of the stars in the Euroleague when he was playing there?

And as for the much-referenced 2006 World Championships in which he demonstrated to the world how NBA-ready he is, in 9 games he had 12 assists, 18 turnovers and 27 fouls (including a sterling 0 assist/5 turnover game against powerhouse Brazil). He also hit 26.2% from 3-point range and averaged a monstrous 1.8 rebounds per game. And in the final against Spain, he was 1/4 from 2-point range and 0-6 from 3-point, for a whopping total of 4 points and 2 assists in 32 minutes. That's what known as disappearing, folks. And he obviously was not picked in the all-tournament team.

The game against the USA was by far his best game in the tournament, and unfortunately, that seems to be the one most VSpan supporters here saw. Sure, he played a great game that night -- but it wasn't indicative of his play in the tournament or his overall talent. It was an aberration, a single great game.

In preseason here, and during his limited regular-season minutes, he's had two poor plays for every flash of possibility he's displayed. You guys can live in your fantasy world if you want, but I don't think VSpan is anywhere close to being an NBA point guard, especially for a team with championship aspirations.

 

This thread is too long to read at this hour. But if Rafer is currently shooting 36.4% from the field overall, that's bad. If he's shooting 36.1% from beyond the 3 point line, that's not so bad (you aren't doing so bad if you only hit 33.3% of your 3PAs, IMHO).

I also saw that this thread asks how low Rafer's shooting percentages will have to go before VSpan warrants a look see. Gosh, who knows? But my guess would be that they would have to drop below VSpan's! I don't know how to answer this question in regards to JLIII, other than to say that his overall FG% is better than Rafer's or VSpan's.

I do acknowledge that PT is very relevant to my comments.

 

Who here actually thinks that John Lucas III doesn't rape Spanoulis in practice? He's the kind of player who would shine a blinding light on the latter's deficiencies- inability to guard without handchecking his man, inability to create space to get off his shot, and a telegraphed transition into the team's offense.

Van Gundy's right- if he deserved any PT, he'd be getting it. I don't think it's as simple as saying the coach is unflinching in his philosophy. Many people think that Steve Novak makes better sense at back-up power forward than Chuck Hayes considering our personnel. If Novak actually brought that reality to bear in practice, we'd be seeing the experiment in games more. I'm guessing the reality is that a run-of-the-mill forward like Chuck reveals the fine-line, which Novak is on the wrong side of at the moment, between a Casey Jacobson and a Jason Kapono. If you can't hack it against NBA-caliber talent in practice, why would a coach gamble on a player coming up aces in a game?

Same thing's happening with Spanoulis.

 

Save Spanoullis, Save the world.

 

While I agree with those that said JL3 has shot better than V-Span and for that matter Rafer.

The problem with JL3 is that there are 2 sides of the court and he is horrible on defense.

Hopefully V-Span will get another shot.....and he may be just angry enough now to really take advantage of it.

As for JVG's contract not being renewed? For those of you drawing a correlation between V-Span and saying the Rockets would fire JVG over him, that is ridiculous.

If they are going to fire JVG it is because of his attitude, his refusal to follow orders in staying positive, and the fact that Morey may want to bring in his guy.

It would have nothing to do with V-span.....and just for arguments sake...without JVG there would be no Red Rowdies.....

DD

 

Really? As poorly as those two have played you don't think if he was even a decent player he would have already got more pt? JL got pt and has been terrible yet he continues to play b/c VSPan is even worse. You aren't at practice and don't see the same things others do.

Caling himself the "Greek McGrady" was a complete joke" and him going public was just plain stupid (especially on a JVG team). JVG even said "if he wants to go home, then he should do so." That tells you how good VSpan is. It was a mistake by our scouting department. All of the few VSpan fans holding out hope, let it go, it's not going to happen. He sucks worse then anything we have now. Rafer will be the starting pg unless we make a move for someone better. b**** and cry all you want but that will remain the case no matter who coaches the team. Reason being, he's the best pg we have.

 

Unless he changes his attitude, adjusts his game, outplays Alston and JL in practice (and we're not just talking one practice), and keeps his mouth shut and stops whining to the media he will never ever get another shot here.