Dylan, Your analogy is ridiculous. What if people decided that WW2 was unjust, and decided to run like a coward then, would it not matter to you because you would be speaking German? I do not say the war was just, or unjust, all I am saying is that to let these cowards back into our country without repriations is a slap to all those who served their country during Vietnam, Korea, WW2 etc..etc.. In no way should they be allowed back in without some penalty enforced on them. That is how I feel, it is a slap on my father who served. DaDakota
Suggesting that someone die or be shipped off to war(even sarcastically) simply because of things they post on the bbs that you don't agree with is in very poor taste. As is calling people cowards for doing what they believe is right. I guess Bush and Clinton are cowards too?
Crisco, I guess we just have different opinions. I will stand by my coward statement, as I firmly believe it. I am not asking anyone else to join me, it is what I believe. DaDakota
Of course it was ridiculous. That was the point. To see if there was a situation so bizzare and unjust that it would be obvious that evading the draft would not be cowardice. About the WW2 situation, I'm certainly glad people did not evade the draft. But I would still not label someone a coward for doing so. People seem pretty brave sometimes when offering other people's lives. By the way, I think you are incorrect when dismissing the question of whether or not the Vietnam war was unjust. I think it is extremely important for this reason. It lets us know where to assign blame. For example, say that 90% of the people found the Vietnam War unjust. Not saying it's true, I don't know the actual number, I'm just using it for now. If that 90% number were accurate, doesn't it seem to you that the politicians who commited to the war were the ones at fault? Why punish people who were drafted for someone else's mistake? It's kinda like how politician's sons are ineligible for the draft. They can sacrifice other's sons but not their own. In this situation it is those who declared war that you should blame. Those are the ones you should be angry at. I know it also isn't fair for those who WERE drafted but they were not there becuase of the draft dodgers. They were there because someone else decided their lives were worth some cause. The either agreed with it or did not disagree stongly enough to evade the draft. Draft evaders decided their lives were NOT worth that cause. I just do not see how you can call this cowardice. By the way, just out of curiousity, what do you think is an appropriate amount of punishment for those who evaded the Vietnam War?
Dylan we disagree, and I am not commenting on whether it was a just war or not. Hindsight is always easy, isn't it. Now, what would be appropriate as punishment, that is a great question, I don't know, maybe like a 10% income tax on these people for the rest of their lives, as long as they live in the USA. The money would go into a fund that would make payments to the families that lost someone in the Vietnam war. DaDakota
DaDa, You didn't answer Crisco's question: Are Bush, Clinton, Quayle, and many other politicians all cowards because they did things to avoid going to Vietnam?
I would agree with you about hindsight if the country thought it was a good idea at the time but even then it was extremely divisive. I mean, do you honestly think the nation became more coawardly as a whole between the WWII to Vietnam? (Question for anyone that knows - did we have a draft in the Korean War? If so was there much draft evasion then?). If we didn't just suddenly become more cowardly then don't you think there has to be at least reason why there was suddenly draft evasion? And again, why tax the draft evaders? They did not put people like your father there. Why do you not want to tax those who sent our troops to Vietnam? Why not make them accountable? It just seems to me like you're punishing the wrong group of people...
Cohen, I'm not laughing at that concept. I know about the red scare and communist paranoia. I understand that it was a very real fear. But that does not make it right. But if there was as much questioning about the war as there was at the time I think that's an indication about the correctness. How is my logic weak? Oh, and I'm not trying to specifically defend glynch's decision (as I know nothing about it) as much as attack the blanket statement that all evaders were/are cowards. Personally? None that I know of. I do think Muhammed Ali was very brave. He stood up for what he believed and risked everything he had (which was quite a bit). I consider that very brave. I wasn't trying to compare that to the Vietnamese war. I probably explained it poorly but it wasn't supposed to be an anology. It was supposed to be a question of, is there a war that could be considered unjust, and if so, is avoiding it cowardice. And again, this is not just the benifit of hindsight. There was a lot of question about it AT THE TIME. I think it is foolish to ignore that and act as if all the questions about our place in that conflict appeared in the last 5 or 10 or 20 years.
DuDakota, IMO there were courageous draft dodgers (I'll even use the negative term) and there were courageous soldiers who valiantly saved others lives during the Vietnam War. There were surely cowards among both as well. But by no means would I view actually showing up (drafted or not) on the Vietnam soil as a soldier as a litmis test for being a coward or being anit-American. Not showing up when called upon to fight for the civilized world against Hitler, and to protect our nation from Japan, you might have some better ground to stand then. But that is how I see it. DD, perhaps I should not have said your acting like an “ass” with all the emotions involved, and this is not directed specifically to you, but I really find the political baiting just really frustrating. Liberals can say things like conservative policies fawned the fires of hatred of America by extremist groups, conservatives can say liberals softness in the world arena lead to this and will keep us susceptible to this in the future. There is probably a complex mix of true elements in both points of view but I just don’t think right now is the time for blaming and broadly generalizing one political bent over another, or calling other Americans un-American. If we can’t talk about these events and what to do from here with respect to fellow Americans (who agree far more than we disagree about our nations principles) than perhaps it is too soon to be talking in this way. Peace.
Dylan, You do have the benefit of hindsight, and you have used it. Although young, I lived in that time. I wrote letters to servicemen in Vietnam as a schoolchild. I know there were issues at the time. I am not acting like there weren't. The question is, is whether draft dodgers could have reasonably known that their actions were truly in the best, long-term interests of their country. Some may have had impressive foresight. I think that most did not understand the threat as others perceived it, just like our strong isolationistic tendencies prior to 2 World Wars. Maybe others did not like the fact that 'fortunate sons' did not have to go. We just cannot sit here today, without hindsight, and say it was obviously a poor decision to enter that war. What if people had determined that Korea was not worth a fight at the time? A quick glance at North Korea would make it obvious that South Koreans would not have appreciated that. The family of a Vietnamese friend of mine were probably communist sympathizers. After the war, they realized how they were wrong. Communism was not what it was intended to be. They had no freedoms. They even had to attain permission to travel to the next village. They risked their lives to leave the country. Not to challenge glynch's decision, but maybe if glynch and his buddies had supported the effort, so the government could have actually gone to war instead of being hamstrung politically, there would be a lot of happy and prosperous South Vietnamese.
My dad left the US because of the draft. Obviously, I can't criticize him for his decision based on how he felt at the time - particularly because I might not exist if he hadn't. I also have an uncle who fought in Vietnam - and he is still emotionally disturbed and has relationship issues because of it. Who made the right choice? Someone's suggestion of a tax penalty is rather oppressive, but I would support a system of lifetime tax breaks that could be established now. Say 10% for serving in the forces during peacetime, and from 25-50% for serving during a war, with the percentage being based on risk.
Gutter Snipe, on a totally unrelated topic, are you a member of a fantasy football league here in Austin called the River City Football League?
So I'm guessing you were hoping that mc mark was, in fact, dead. Hmmm, all objectivity you've ever claimed of having (and you haven't really been fooling anyone), are completely gone by now with that idiotic comment.
First of all, I thought the statement was pretty dang funny. I'm sure many of you would be laughing about it as well if we were in a bar having a drink, rather than this PC environment. Second, TheFreak is not the one trying to divide people along political lines here. The opening post was so completely condescending and ridiculous, that it definitely warranted my reply, which was clearly a joke. The only thing I am guilty of is stooping to the level of the thread originator -- he was obviously hoping for division when he started the thread; I merely obliged him. I will not respond to anymore statements that take what I said as anything more than a joke. In addition, if you think I am trying to make light of the tragedy, you are just flat out wrong.
It's not a matter of political correctness to say that you don't think it's appropriate to say that you wished a whole group of people would die.
