Most of my fiance's family is from Montana. I don't have anything against Montanans. The largest militia group in the US just bases itself in Montana, I believe, hence the source of my remark. Did you think I was making generalizations about Montana?
I have only heard that the Taliban was known to harbor and protact bin Laden. I've never heard one bit about bin Laden being in control of the country. I've also heard that we only THINK that bin Laden was the one behind this, i.e. all the evidence points to him. Also, bin Laden is Saudi Arabian. No one has mentioned blowing up Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden is a nutcase, and he may in fact be sitting in a cave, but he also is not some insignificant weirdo that we shouldn't worry about. His is incredibly wealthy, incredibly resourceful, and incredibly dangerous. No one in power has said anything about wiping out Islam, or civilian Muslims, or wiping out every country in the Middle East. We know that you are Muslim, and we know that you are an American. We know that you're on our side, regardless of how jaded some might think your opinion may be. I hate to be rude, but get off your high horse. And I say you need a grasp of reality.
Although I greatly disagree with your stance, I appreciate you having the guts to stand up and voice your opinion, which of course is your First Amendment Right. This is exactly what he has been arguing against this whole time. I'll readily admit that when I read the thread he started about carving up the Middle East, it sounded way more extreme and angry than it should have been. He used poor judgement in his title, to be sure. BUT I have read his posts on several occasions in the past three days where he adamantly disagrees with killing civilians in those places. He says how he has recently been to those places, and was warmly welcomed by the people there. Like he said, he doesn't want mass killings of innocent civilians anywhere. He (and I) only want those responsible to suffer for this, and if "those responsible" includes a government, then that government, no matter which government it is, needs to be taken down with crushing force.
Lynus, I actually missed the fact that Bin Laden himself said that quote, hence my response. The only point I want to make is someone can call every human in the world out to kill all rabbits, and that is as idiotic a statement as Bin Laden made. Though he HAD Damn well better be dead or in our hands in the next week or i'll be PISSED. They need to learn respect and fear! Time to terrorize the terrorists....
Lynus: thank you for saying this. I have for the most part been reading the last couple of days the posts and threads here and not really responding, but I'm getting more than a little annoyed about people saying that the US had this coming. You may not agree with our foreign policy, but certainly you agree that innocent people did not deserve to lose their lives. Yes, people in this country have a right to voice their opinion, no matter how much others disagree with it. But what Lynus said about patriotism is so true. Five years ago maybe even up to two years ago, I took this country for granted. If this had happened back then, I probably would have shrugged my shoulders and thanked God that it didn't happen to me. In other words, I wouldn't have been so upset about this like I am now. What changed my attitude? About a year ago, I went to DC for the first time in my life for a work-related seminar. One day after class, me and the guy who went with me went sightseeing. We saw the Jefferson Memorial, Vietnam War Memorial, Korean War Memorial, Washington Monument, Lincoln Memorial, and later Arlington National Cemetary. Let me tell you something: reading some of Lincoln's words on the walls of the Lincoln Memorial and seeing JFK's eternal flame at his gravesite in Arlington with always a crowd around stirred up some patriotism in me. Or better yet seeing the changing of the guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier or seeing the whole city from the front of the Robert E. Lee House stirred up some patriotism in me. I could go on and on, but I think people here get the point. I will go back to DC some day when it's not work related and visit the White House, the Capitol, and other things that we missed. It definitely changed my life forever. Sadly, there are people who just don't get it. I'll never forget seeing a person continue to keep walking when the National Anthem was being played one night at a high school football game. You could just tell that people wanted to beat the crap out of this guy for doing this. People that burned the flag is another example of this. I am almost to the point of saying that if you felt that the US deserved this attack and that innocent people deserved to die, then I want you out of this country. I am tired of the US giving handouts to people who don't give a damn about it.
That cannot be done without hurting and even killing civilians. Its not possible. The US will certainly do its utmost to avoid killing civilians, but we are not perfect, and there will be mistakes, and civilians will die.
And one other thing - Osama bin Laden probably sees himself as a patriot. Patriotism is nice, but it can be taken too far. No one on this boards has suggested that the United States "had it coming" or "deserved these attacks", but something has happened to make a lot of people hate us with a vengeance, and frankly I think that needs to be explored. If we've done something, or are doing something thats engendering this hate, we need to stop or all taking out bin Laden will do is merely create a martyr for a cause. I don't want to see something like this happen ever again.
Haven: you act like I was specifically talking to you when I've never mentioned any names at all. So, to me you are the one who needs to read more carefully. I think somebody here say that you are Muslim and I'm not blaming all Muslims for this attack and I'm not saying that we need to eliminate all Muslims. Only an uneducated idiot would think something like this. Hell, when I was in grad school, one of my best friends was a devout Muslim from Pakistan. Any religion is going to have extremists that are going to make uneducated people think that the whole religion is like that. Unfortunately, not everybody in this country has the privilege of being educated like you and me. I'm sure there are many Arabic Muslims who have been brainwashed or uneducated and feel that every American or Westerner is out to get them. It goes both ways. But the reason I bring all this up is that I at least, am not in favor of radical measures against Muslims. I'll repeat that so it's loud and clear: I am not in favor of radical measures against Muslims. The whole point of my previous post was that I was agreeing 100% with Lynus. I'm sorry but to me there are people who have been posting here the last couple of days that I would love to see them express their viewpoints to the President of my company, which is a huge Defense Contractor, Senior Vice-President, and Director of Business Operations. All of these gentlemen are either retired military or have ties to the military. Better yet, explain your views Haven to some of the families that lost loved ones to this event. I know some people love to argue (I work right next to a guy like that), and it's your right to feel this way. That's one of the greatest things about this scapegoat of a country called the United States. Unlike all these other countries that are run by dictators, despots, and puppets of religious groups, people like you can say these things and not fear that you are going to get shot. Funny how many people forget about that. Funny how many people forget all the things that America has done for them. Are we perfect? Of course not. I am sick and tired of my country being made a scapegoat and being painted as an "evil" country when that simply is and never will be true. I am sorry for being so emotional, but I have never experienced an event like this in my life and I hope I never will have to again. We have a member who we have no idea if he's alive in mc mark. What do you think would go through his mind if he read some of these posts? Do you think he would say, "Yes, the US was asking for trouble because of our friendship with Israel?" Or how about almu, ROCKET RICH NY, or VecseySux? I am sorry and I mean no disrespect whatsoever to Mark McGriff, and if one of the admins wants to remove this part of my post or this post completely then I understand. My point is that in this country, at least in my eyes, people stick up for each other and when one of your own is a possible victim, you don't even try to rationalize why this happened other than it's a terrorist act. To say or imply that the US had something like this coming because of our friendship with Israel is something that is really insensitive and incendiary. Haven, you have not said that you felt that the US had this coming, and other people have said the same. However, the tone and attitude smacks of that viewpoint. You're not crazy to come out and say it, but the more you defend your viewpoint, the more other people like myself are going to believe that you might feel that way. Until mc mark is accounted for can we all here realize how terrible this tragedy is and not make excuses for it other than it was an act of terrorism? Before people here go crazy and ballistic, please read this post at least twice and think before you post.
No, I was speaking for anybody you could possibly accusing. Nobody has said any such thing. Why don't you prove it? You can't. Come back and paste a response.
Dude, you really don't want to go there ! If you really read my post (I said twice and you probably didn't read it once), then you would know that I said that people here did not come out and say it directly but they implied it. You want an example? Here's one from FD Khan in the thread started by Da Dakota: "Imagine if your country was being bombed over and over and over for months and months. And then you are placed with economic sanctions meaning you can't buy or sell literally anything. I guess you're getting an extremely small taste of what life is like for oppressed people." Hmm...sounds like to me that he felt that the US had this coming . Another post from FD Khan in the same thread: "I love my country but I fear the actions of our government in terms of Middle East Policy and its Support of a separtist state that oppresses others based on their race will not put an end to the roots of the problems that we saw today. You can kill Osama Bin Laden, Afghanistan, the Taliban, Saddam Hussein, and anyone else.....but as long as people are oppressed by US foreign policy then this will not end anytime soon. Oppression causes frustration, anger and insanity which leads to events that we see like today." Pretty much the same sentiment as above. Here's a post from Achebe from the same thread: "It's also assanine to insinuate you'll invoke your standards on someone merely b/c you can. **** man, don't you understand that's what got us attacked in the first place? This wasn't about the preponderance of McDonald's in the region... it's about us violating the humanitarian rights of Iraqi civilians for our economic stability and enforcing Jewish colonialism in the Middle East." Pretty cut and dry here, hey Haven? Then Thanos puts in his two cents: "However, as it has been pointed out in several posts, the US goverment actions over the 20th century are the ones to be blamed for such hatred. The USA's siding with Israel in the middle east issues, largely due to the lobbying power that jewish-american capitalists have over congress and the government is flat out unnaceptable and should have been reviewed before it allowed things to become as they sadly are." However, Jag chimes in with this post: "Ok...I'm asking seriously now...does it even occur to you that the United States has done anything wrong to these people? Why do you assume that anything about us they say is bad is a lie? I'n NOT supporting terrorism, but do you honestly think that the lengths to which these people hate America, to such an extent that they'd give their lives in the struggle against the U.S. , do you really think it's all based on madness or lies!?!? Isn't it possible that they might have some points, which to them might be less abstract...like, let's say, a dead family... In terms of Afghanistan's gratitude... 1) Our funding, while a great assistance, was very selective, and usually filtered through Pakistan..We gave 80% to one or 2 groups, while other rivaling groups got next to nothing...And the Afghans were quite aware that we were doing it to support our own interests, like the Communists did in Nam... 2) Bin Laden was originally pro-US, but when the Americans pulled promised support for the Afghan war it began a split...Later, Laden was opposed to having American troops in Saudi Arabia...He said that once they were allowed in, they would never leave, as it was a way to exert their own power over the oil resource rich area...The U.S., of course, protested that their only interests in Saudi Arabia were with regards to the immediate conflict, and would of course leave as soon as their objective was accomplished...The Americans pressured the Saudi Govt. to make Bin Laden unwelcome in his own country ( where he had previously been hailed as a hero for selling off large quantities of his wealty family's assets to fund the Afghan fight against the Soviet Union, a war in which he actually went and fought.) to which pressure they succumbed...Is it little surprise that, 10 years later, Laden is anti-American? Oh, and 10 years later...long after the Gulf War....the troops that Laden said wouldn't leave once allowed in...the troops the U.S. swore were only there for that immediate objective...the troops which caused the US to have Laden exiled from his homeland.....they're still there...." Haven, you are right..I could not find anything by you although you would occasionally post and say to one of these posters, "I agree or I agree with you but I am too tired to argue with these other people. In one post you say that a German exchange student told you that Germany has no strong feelings either way towards the US. Then you question his answer. Have you ever been to Washington, D.C. in your life? If you have, have you ever read the words of Lincoln on the Lincoln Memorial's walls? Have you ever visited Arlington? If you haven't you need to. Maybe a lot of other people need to do that, too. Like I said before you are always going to have people who want to argue; however, I feel it is unfathomable to have the feelings that some of these quotes convey. This was an unspeakable act of terrorism and it should not be defended with comments like "our govt drove them to this". It's funny how almost everyone, including me, on this thread got upset over some of your posts. You wanted examples..well now you have them. How are you going to explain/defend this? I'll be eagerly waiting your BS response.
Manny Ramirez -- Thank you sooooooooooo much for doing that. I really didn't want to go through all the various threads finding that stuff. There's your proof, Haven.
Lynus, No problem, man. He challenged me and I have read too many threads and posts the last couple of days not to know that what you, me, and other people know is true. It's like you said earlier, some of these people need to get some goddang patriotism. Visiting DC and Arlington and seeing the monuments and memorials would do them a world of good.
I wonder what it would take to get haven to volunteer to go to war. What does it take man? Does it take a nuclear bomb explosion in Chicago? Does it take biological warfare on US soil? What would it take to get some of the usual suspect liberals on this board to be pissed off enough that you don't question why, that you only question when and where. I'm not the big man patriot or anything, but it scares me somewhat to think of how soft our nation has become. Everyone is afraid of what lies ahead, you'd be stupid not to be afraid but there is a duty we all have as Americans. I'm ashamed to think we will not meet that challenge to fight for our freedom if that day comes and it may very well come soon.
Yeah. I've been to DC a few times. Its impossible to keep from crying, esp when you're at Arlington. I think every American should make it a point to go there. The last time I was there was on Memorial Day a few years back. I saw all the Vietnam vets and their respective motorcycle clubs on their way from the Pentagon to the Vietnam War Memorial. The only thing there that kept me from crying was the roar of their Harleys. One of my cousins belongs to the LA chapter.
Timing, Excellent post. I wonder the same things myself. I am very scared if we go to war; however, if I got called to serve, I would be there. Hopefully, our retribution will avoid war, but if not, we should not be scared to enter it. BTW - I was reading some of the posts on the opposite thread which was started by Fromobile. All I got to say is that I'm glad that "professor" is not in charge of our country. We wouldn't have a country left--all these countries like Iraq and Libya would be bombing the hell out of us and this fool would say, "we can't retaliate, we might hurt or kill innocent citizens." Well, it's like that old saying, "All's fair in love and war."
No, no, no. If we do that we become no better than them - and no matter the outcome of the war, we all lose.
You are exactly right about Arlington. Visting JFK's gravesite was an intense moment. You could feel the heartbreak and respect that was in the air. This along with seeing the changing of the guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, the majestic view of DC from the front of the Robert E Lee House, and the countless number of graves including those of decorated military personnel will stay with me forever. It's like I told the guy I was with---I don't see how anyone can hate this country if they see these moving memorials and monuments. Sorta surprised that Haven hasn't tried to respond with some bogus excuse. Don't you just love calling someone's bluff?
Manny and Timing: Both of you just don't understand what people are saying. Let me put it simply, so you two can understand: The US is guilty of creating resentments. The response on Tuesday was not commensurate with the offense. It was completely evil. That doesn't mean there isn't a basis for offence. Not a single person has indicated tha the US "got what they deserved". If you can't understand that, well... there's nothing I can do to teach you subtlety. I don't consider myself particularly nationalistic. Patriotic? In the way that I believe in most of the ideals that Americans value... well, yes I am. That doesn't mean I don't question our government's actions. It seems that you guys don't do that. You can call it patriotism. I'll call it simple-minded brainwashing.
So are you saying we do nothing aka a pacifist view?? You have to remember that we are not dealing with normal, rational people here. I'll be damned if I live in a country that is too cowardly to retaliate against an enormous wrong done to it!
