ROCKSS : You are absolutely correct. 100%. The reason I chose that language is because, as I grew up Baptist, I felt that it wasn't a philosophy so much as a fanatic belief. Borderline brainwashing in my opinion. My late teens and early twenties, I searched. I searched for that something to fill the "void" that almost every christian religion tells you that you have. I have Catholic friends, so I went to their places of worship, learned some of their doctrines, but could not find what I was looking for there either. Fire and brimstone preaching breeds fear IMO, not enlightenment. And how many Hail Mary's do you have to say to make it into Heaven under Catholicism?
I still don't see why you feel that all organized religion (except Buddhism) is oppressive today. How are Christians oppressed and/or how do Christians oppress others today? Granted, many years ago, religions did participate in oppressive behavior, but I don't see Christianity doing so today. Perhaps your use of the word "oppressive" to describe organized religion in the present is what is confusing to me. Christian religous leaders certainly aren't tyrannical nor do they exercise their authority unjustly upon a people. I was raised Catholic. I chose to remain and practice Catholicism when I became an adult. I raised my children Catholic and I encourage them to practice their Christian faith, but in no way do I force them to do so. They are adults, they can make up their own minds. I am sorry that you have had negative religious experiences in your time. Incidentally, I have faith that I can get into heaven without saying a single Hail Mary (although I regularly pray the Rosary - so with me it's a moot point). I am sure there are countless folks in heaven who have never said one Hail Mary.
If you want me to take your opinion seriously, please get my name right. You wouldn't think much of me if I called you ScreamerJetRocket, would you? You'll also see more smiles in a lunatic asylum. Doesn't mean they aren't suffering. I agree with you up to a point. A bigger house, a faster car, and shiny clothing certainly isn't the path to a satisfying life. But if you take away the air we breathe or the food we eat, a "smile on our face" isn't going to stop our suffering. And for any of us to tell a person who by any standards is experiencing significant physical pain (pain that cannot be alleviated by a change in "attitude") to be "happy with what they have" comes off as condescending and Pollyannaesque wish-wash. I don't believe in "free" will because the fact of the matter is, our "will" is largely shaped by how we are raised and the environment in which we are raised. Now I can't speak for the people on this board, but I had very, very little say in these things growing up. Although I am an atheist, I also view morality from a very Western/Christian point of view. Did I choose this particular view? Not really - I grew up in the Western Hemisphere in an Episcopalian family. And while I can challenge aspects of such a view (which also is not solely an aspect of my personality - both my parents are skeptics), the fact remains that Western and Christian thought will always influence me. I will also mention that much of our attitude is controlled by hormones and chemicals in the brain. Why do you think drug abuse is so pervasive? - it has the ability to simulate the biological reactions in our bodies that control our mood. It's literally "attitude adjustment" in a easily consumed substance. I can't imagine that a God who professes mercy would be so cruel as to punish those whose "attitudes" fail to meet some standard. How awful.
When the pope stops inferring that people who use birth control will go to hell, then maybe you'll be half-right. But I bet you would agree that by being raised Catholic, both you and your children's worldviews are irreversibly colored by Catholic dogma. Even if you were to choose to practice a different religion, Catholicism would always influence the way you approach all aspects of life. I firmly believe that the decisions we make as adults are largely dictated by the ones made for us as children. I wish you were the Pope. Unfortunately, the Church has always seemed more interested in controlling people than enlightening them. Nothing would make me happier than to see religion disappear and be replaced by a more personal and private spirituality.
subtomic : Aww, you beat me to it. Bobek: Oppression can be overt or subversive. Subtomic has given an example. ANY power, be it governmental or theological, that takes from the people that support that power and yet let those "followers" suffer in poverty, sickness, etc is oppressive. Additionally, you concede that many religions of past (including Catholicism) was overtly oppressive. How can you follow a belief that was initially corrupt? Christianity was forced on people in fear of death or eternal damnation. But because the "church" doesn't practice this openly any longer, the faith is now pure and right? That logic does not compute. Think about your statement that you don't force your children to practice your faith. When your children were small, did you ever have to force them to go to church? Honestly. Maybe a few times, right? I am sure you are a TERRIFIC father, but want kind of encouragement did you give your children when they didn't want to go? Some form of punishment? Threats of no blessings from the Holy Mother? What? And now that your kids are adults, how many years of Catholic beliefs have been placed upon them, encouraged, force or otherwise? Decades, right? Have you ever taken them to a synagogue? How about a good ole Black Southern Baptist church? Protestant church? Probably never, right? So were they really ever free to choose their religion? No. Not until after they have had decades of your beliefs indoctrinated into them. Let me close by saying this: Bobek, I respect you as person. I can't place a face to you, but your words are eloquent and intelligent. I am not an atheist, I am not sure if I am even agonistic. I feel true that there is a God, but a God unlike anything that has ever been taught in church by man. Please do not take offense to my beliefs, as I would never take offense to yours. FC
I do not take offense at your remarks, however, I will correct a misconception. Believe it or not, but there were never any threats that were made to get my 2 children to go to church. They may not have wanted to go, but they kept it to themselves. They also seemed to enjoy their church experience. There was much more to it than simply attending Mass. There were youth groups that they joined and various projects for them to participate in. For instance, my son made 2 mission trips to Mexico and helped build a couple of buildings for the poor and destitute. He also made a trip to Montana and helped with work in a national park. Once they had the freedom of a driver's license, they were given the option to go to church with us, go by themselves or to not go at all. Invariably my son continued to go, but more often than not, chose a different Mass time than us (one that his friends usually went to). My daughter, on the other hand, was going through a period of disenchanment with the church in general from the age of about 17-just recently and more often than not did not go at all. She has seemed to change her views back to acceptance of the church and is planning to have a Catholic ceremony for her wedding next summer. Both my wife and I were encouraged to hear that even though we continued to make sure she knew that this was HER wedding and to not consider a Catholic ceremony for anyone's benefit other than her own. My children have been to a synagogue, they have been to a Baptist service with us and they have attended services of other faiths with their friends. (Don't assume things you don't know). We actually encouraged out daughter to seek out other forms of faith if she so desired. There are many things that have changed over the years. Whites were intially cruel to blacks in this country. While prejudice and racism still exist, things are better. Does that make currentwhites bad? Our forefathers were cruel to the American Indians, should I not consider myself an American due to their corruptness and cruelty? Germans performed terrible atrocities upon Jews, should I not associate with Germans? I assume that you consider the American government oppressive based on your following statement: ANY power, be it governmental or theological, that takes from the people that support that power and yet let those "followers" suffer in poverty, sickness, etc is oppressive. There are many Americans suffering in poverty, homelessness and hunger.
One more thing, which I forgot to mention. The only private school my kids ever attended was Northwest Academy in Houston which is operated by First Baptist Church. They had a tremendous opportunity to experience the Baptist side of Christianity while there.
Bobek: First of all let me say congratulations in regards to your daughter's upcoming wedding. I am sure you are very happy and proud of her. I am overjoyed in being wrong this time. Many do not encourage their children to experience different beliefs, thoughts or way of life. Perhaps if more people were like you, the path to enlightenment would be much further along. My respect for you deepens even more. In regards to your racism analogies, that is comparing apple with oranges. We are talking about faith, religion. Something that an individual can choose to follow or not. Completely different from slavery/racism. Are current Whites bad? In general, no. Is White people who teach their children twisted hatred bad? Yes. Were you born in the USA? Yes, then you are American. Again apple and oranges. Disassociate with Germans because of past atrocities....no. But would you associate with skin-head, quasi-nazi's? Maybe I can explain my position best this way: Many people were outraged with the Clinton-Lewinski (sp?) scandal. Why? Because the President was amoral, he lied, etc, etc. What does that really translate into? How can we follow a leader, that is unprincipled. He is supposed to be the example, the light of the nation. IMHO, man's religion is inately corrupt. Knowing this, how can I follow? If you speak of faith, then fine. That is different. I have faith that my beliefs are true. Even if I am wrong, they are not corrupted and twisted. Not for my gain or anyone elses. Anyway Bobek, this has been very interesting. I look forward to seeing your response, but for now I must go. I will check to see if you have any further response in the morning. Until then, have a great evening.
Religion in the Context of Tragedy -- I'm terrible at articulating my points so I hope y'all can bear with and/or someone will come along and repeat me in clearer, more concise language. I think fear compels us to lash out at some Divine Entitity, the want to blame something where blame cannot be easily placed, the realization that perhaps life is not risk free -- that we're all walking the wire without a safety net. How could He forsake us? How could he allow innocent people to die? Why ask? We'll never know. Religion has presumed for thousands of years that this Divine Entity is like man, thinks like man, and acts like man. That while working us like marrionettes, he simultaneously judges are actions. That he's angered when we stray from his path, that he loves us when we are faithful, that were are to him like children or sheep or what not. We anthropomorphize our Divine Arbiter to better understand him, we've been doing it forever, from Sun-Worship through Greek Mythology, from Christianity to Islam when reality is, whatever, whomever is author of life is well beyond any comprehension and certainly not subject to the gamut of emotions that rule us. Our time is better served uplifting others and improving the conditions around us for everyone, and not being concerned about the motivations of some divine entitiy.
Subtomic The asylum gag is a pretty stupid comparison mate...completely ignorant and socially naive. My wife works for the government of Thailand...so we spend a fair amount of time there. Thailand is the worlds only Buddhist Kingdom...and is also known as the 'land of smiles'. I have a great number of Thai friends...the smiles are genuine. Material things aren't as important to them...they beleive in re-birth and a path to enlightenment. They have found a peace that I truely envy...
ScreamingRocketJet, You obviosly missed my point with the asylum analogy. "Smiles" don't equal the absence of suffering. To believe otherwise is the heighth of naivete. Please read my entire post before making blanket statements like that.
Stone Cold Hakeem: I couldn't agree more. I think your post was quite articulate, actually. Good job. I took a lot of Philosophy in College and the first day of my Philosophy of Religion class, we were assigned to write a paper answering the following question: Did God create Man or did Man create God? My answer: yes.
Outlaw and Subtonic Man...you guys have serious problems...look at a whole countries culture. Houston is known as the red neck capital of the world...but we all know that isn't true...Bangkok represents NOTHING of the real Thailand. As someone married to a Thai and who has a lot of Thai friends...people who are Doctors, Police...my wife is a Pharmacist...nurses...that's offensive... Subtomic...mate, you must be an absolute moron. Actually, I shouldn't say that... I am guessing you are 12 to 14??.. and just naive... I hope you grow up one day.
I lost faith in god on December,21,1999, My best fried was killed in a bus crash in Colorado. The bus was on its way back from a CHURCH ski trip. 3 people were killed and around 40 injured. some of those who were injured had cruched pelvises and now have trouble walking and other every day thngs. R.I.P. KD
ScreamingRocketJet, Wait a minute - hold up on the name-calling for a minute. Because believe it or not, I see and agree with (to a degree) the point you're trying to make. A positive attitude is a definite way to mitigate the trials and tribulations that all humans must endure. When I had a similar argument with another person re: human suffering and free will, the other person told me the story of a political prisoner who decided to embrace his surroundings. He used the time for introspection and made attempts to socialize with his prisoners (he even offered to share his meager food with one of the guards). Amazingly, when the prison in which he was kept was freed, he was the only prisoner who did not require psychological therapy. However, I would never argue that the ex-prisoner didn't suffer at all. Where you and I seem to diverge is the extent to which attitude influences suffering. I do not doubt for a second that Thailand has a significant number of happy and content citizens. But admit it, your posts practically painted the place as Shangri-la. The point that I have been trying to make is that while attitude can alleviate suffering, it does not and cannot eliminate it completely. With the exception of saints and fictional characters, we cannot will away starvation, disease, physical pain. This of course brings me back to my original point - why would a God, a God that professes in the Bible to be merciful, allow humans to suffer in instances where free will is not involved?
Sub Good points and peace! I was a bit angry with the Bangkok joke...my wife and a lot of friends are Thai and they are the kindest, sweetest people you'd ever meet. Thai people hate the sex trade that goes on there...and 99.9% of them have nothing to do with it. Anyway...that's another topic all together! Re Thailand...it was a silly example by me anyway as Thailand is hardly a place of suffering etc. I spend half the year in Sydney and half there...and one is as easy as the other to live in all honesty. I guess a better example would be the very place this whole topic has arisen from...Afghanistan...and yes, I agree that the suffereing there etc is terrible. Buddhism has a lot of literature on suffereing and the reasons for it...you may want to read it sometime... I am at work... sorry if this is a rushed reply...
The Breese: Don't give up faith man!! I lost my best friend of 15 years exacly one year ago in a car accident. I do not blame god for this. I believe that god creates and lives through each of us. I was brought up with Christian beliefs. I've accepted Jesus as my savior. Actually several times (just to make sure ). But I've always questioned a lot of the Christian beliefs. For example: Why is it that I will be saved even if I do evil deeds, yet the child who never is introduced to Christianity and dies, ends up in hell? I just can't buy into that. I believe in god and Jesus Christ but I don't take the Bible as literally as most Christian organizations do. I mean why is God potrayed as an angry, jealous and vengeful God? I can't buy that. I believe God loves everyone, equally. I have a sneaking suspicion that we're all praying to the same God. We just give him different names. Now, will I go to hell for saying this? Or can I ask for Christ's forgiveness and it's all good? Man I get confused over this!!
