outlaw, thats a question i cant definitively answer andi apologize for it but this is according to scripture which i believe god created us all with our own ability to choose between right and wrong, once adam and eve messed up, we were forever doomed to a life of sin as punishment However, God is a very forgiving person and wants his "children" to love him and be with him forever, thus he sent Jesus, his only son down to die for our sins. What im getting at is I dont think God makes decisions for us, but once you acknowledge your sins and let him enter your life forever, he helps you out in ways unimaginable. However, I believe whomever did this did not have the "Connection' to God, and thus was basically going on his own belief of right and wrong and subconscious thoughts. Also as sad as this may sound, sometimes events like these which are the most extreme, are used to get people to really come together and think Please dont mistake me for saying that you are awful if you dont believe in the Lord, because I dont think that way, and no ill never be positive how my tooth was healed, but nevertheless I do believe in him, but at the same time realize he gave everyone a free will to make their own choices and doesnt enter ones soul until he or she wants him to, thus people still ultimately control their own actions. Overall, honestly I think that while believing in the Lord has the ability to get people to lead better lives, even Christians, including myself and many on this board, still have the ability to control our actions as God just tries to push us to live for the common good not manipulate our actions. P.S. : I do not condone what has happened in any way but I do not think 'God" just watched as his "children" were being harmed, I think it comes back to the idea that one whom hasnt accepted him into his or her life doesnt receive his loving and tender care and support, at least thats the way i see the Bible: Its almost like he wants to help, but cant because the person is blocking his entrance
it sounds like you're saying god only helps those who believe in him. so those who died yesterday didn't have enough faith for him to help them?
like i said i cant definitively answer, why this happened and why wasnt it prevented, thats an answer well never truly know, unfortunately. 2nd, Im definitely not saying all these people died because they didnt believe, its not true. Ultimately i do believe these people will be saved, just in a spiritual sense not a physical sense. Also let me say, I really dont understand the full ramifications of Gods work, i just go by the scripture as best as I can. Also, I dont believe the Lord manipulates our actions, he just tries to guide us in the right direction and unfortunately Bin Laden or whomever did this was in a mind of his own i believe. Even as a Christian, while I try hard to glorify the Lord, I realize I am not perfect and sin still to this day . Overall, I think that God loves everyone and the victims of this whole tragedy will be saved, just in the spiritual sense not the physical sense and that those who believe in some form of God, aren't exempt from suffering and making mistakes as his goal is to help us make decisions not manipulate our every move
Why would God care about a Cavity and Not what happened yesterday? Thats the most ignorant remark Ive ever heard! God isn't a hospital , he doesn't tell people "I won't heal your teeth because I have to much work to do on other people." How could God have let this happen? You wouldn't be asking that question if you knew how many small mircales he does each day and the precious few that recognize and thank Him for it . WHo knows how many times God stopped Terrorist attacks and nobody even knew what might have happened to them .
So GOD does care? What about that random aside about 'free will' (as if I've ever understood that defense of a 'benevolent' God anyway)? Is GOD just too overworked to handle it all? Man, this religion thing is harder to understand than I thought.
FIRE ME! ... but can we please not try to understand GOD? If He can be understood and analyzed, who is He? Most of the time we will understand the reasons better some years AFTER the events ... sometimes we just never can understand ... You might think it is passive ... but do what we can, and leave the rest to Him. That's the best we can do. If you believe in Him ... Peace.
I don't understand many of these debates. It seems to me that the arguments traditionally break down into this: Why does God not help the people? God gave man free will. So what does praying do? God can and does answer prayers. So why answer some prayers and not others? God has a plan. How could a travesty such as this be in his plan? We are mortals, and by definition we cannot understand immortal God's plan. Atheists call it a cop-out, believers call it faith. Neither side <b>EVER</b> convinces the other of anything, and generally it creates bad blood between people. Do you all seriously feel the need to try to debunk these people's source of solace and calm at a time like this?
I am a Buddhist... Find out something about it if you want to learn...there's some great reading around. Buddhism believes that we are the ultimate controllers of our destiny...reaching Nirvana is up to us and how WE behave...not just believing in a god etc... That's too simple an explanantion... One thing I will say...no one has ever been killed in the name of Buddhism.
Free will??? What a joke - free will is an illusion we trick ourselves into believing so that we won't go insane. The fact of the matter is, we have very, very little control over the most important aspects in our life. We have no say in where we are born. We have no say in when we are born. We have no say in who will be our parents. There were children on those plane. I don't think they chose to go on one of those flights. Nor were they experienced enough to comprehend the dangers that came with flying on an airplane. More than likely, their parents were in control of their destiny. At what point did free will enter the equation??? And furthermore, most of our behavior is biological, not based on free will. We don't eat because we decide to be hungry, or sleep because we decide to be tired, or get a woody because we decide to be horny - we do these things because our body tells us to. How does someone born into poverty or in a third-world countrywill themselves to suffer hunger, disease, pain? If God only intended us to suffer based on our free choices, then he/she's be slipping up since the dawn of time.
Subtonic...I have spent a fair amount of time in 'third world' countries...and I can easily say I have seen a million more smiles than I have ever seen in some of the worlds most 'succesful' cities... A lot of life is attitude...being happy with what you have...not being upset with what you don't have... This thread's hard at an emotional time like this...
subatomic: most of your refutations about our free will are issues that are decided before we are conceived so they cannot possibly be a result of OUR free will (parents, birth place, DOB etc). Our existence is not entirely one hinged on free will; we do have a biological life as you so well pointed out. However, free will is MUCH MORE than choosing whether or not to supersize our fast food lunch or resisting our parent's insistance that we board a plane. The free will being cited here pertains to spiritual matters. Osama Bin Laden has irrefutably TURNED AWAY FROM GOD. He exercises his free will thusly and look at the result. It is most despicable for evil to masquerade as spiritual or religious. Look how many here condemn religious people because of what some "seemingly" religious people have perpetrated. Why would you ironically take "instruction" from the evil-doers? Godly people (whether Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, or Hare Krishna) don't do these kind of things, yet those who do DO these kinds of things while claiming divine right not only accomplish the physical destruction they also plunder people's faith and contribute to turning their free will AWAY from God. Just because they claim it doesn't make it so! Think for yourself and turn to your own spiritual resources. God grants prayer requests in HIS WAY not yours. That is the mystery, but it is very clear that people of faith respond to these kinds of tragedies better than those without faith or with weakened faith.
If I would have been able to switch places with any one of those lost in this trajedy I could have exhibited no greater love for them. " For GOD so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Once you really figure this out, then you begin to understand all the other commands ... Do unto others ... Love your enemies ... Pray for those who spitefully use you ... If you believe that this is a created world, and not chance-happened, then this verse says the one who actually created it all gave up his own life through his Son to save all from perishing. When you figure out the depth of the perish, the evil that befalls us here pails in comparison. There is no greater love than GOD has given, but it was at the highest cost to him. He gave it of his own free will, laid his life down for us. This is his life-everlasting gift to us in a sense, and to receive it you must only believe and follow after him because of the preciousness of the gift. Who shouldn't want to follow after life, anyway. From GOD's perspective, if I may, it is a life or death decision. Who in their right mind would choose death over life. Apparently free will produced/produces many who would. it is a choice, CHOOSE LIFE !
I know that this may sound insensitive, so forgive me if I hurt or offend anyone. I truly don't intend to. Whenever WE are faced with such a tragedy, and thoughts of God, I think we must also ask ourselves, how do we view death. I like to think of death as a part of the evolution of the "soul", "life-force", "consciousness", etc. that exists in all of us. And though it pains me, as it surely does us all, when a friend, loved one, peer, or fellow citizen dies a mortal death, I am comforted with the belief that they have evolved to some unimaginable, indescribable spiritual plane created and occupied by The Creator. I am sad that they will no longer be with me, but I am happy that their pain is gone and that they will no longer be held by the limitations of the mortal world. Of course, these are my beliefs. Feel free to agree or disagree.
MattsayzIstillbelieve!!!: Well said. Organized religion is the ultimate form of oppression. A prison in which your mind and spirit can never escape.
If you stepback and look at this situation, the real question should be "how can you not be religious?" If someone or something like this can be so evil, then there must be something that is the complete opposite. Something that inspires us to do good and to save lives. How else do you explain the firemen and police that went into the burning WTC towers and sacrificed their own lives, the people aboard United Airlines Flight 93 that brought down the plane that could have killed countless more, the unity of our country now in the face of evil. I to wonder how God could allow this kind of evil. I dont know why he does. Humans have free will. But we are influenced by good and evil. Seems like he is very hands off with us on Earth and deals with all Evil once you leave Earth. I think these tragic losses and insanely evil terrorist allow us to learn, to unite, and to appreciate what we have. The world has great amounts of evil as we witnessed on Tuesday September 11th, 2001. But the world has even more goodness as we have witnessed every day since and will to continue to witness into the future. I dont go to church, I don't really believe in church, but I do believe in a God, a leader of all that is good. That's my 2.5 cents.
ScreamingRocketJet: Please excuse my blanket statement about religion. As Buddhism is the by far (IMO) the most benevolent of religions. If you can call it a religion, opposed to a philosphey.
Good post, Win3Cat5. Unity. Respect. Appreciation. The need to resolve the often petty differences and insecurities that cause, in an absolutely irrational manner, the tragedies of Tuesday. Maybe these are some of the lessons to take from this disaster.
As a Catholic, I don't feel oppressed. No one is holding a gun to my head forcing their views upon me. My mind is free to examine other religions as well as non-religions. In turn, I don't force my beliefs upon anyone else. Please explain your statement. You've already backed down from including Buddhists as being oppressed.
Franchisecat, I was curious to why you made the following statement "Please excuse my blanket statement about religion. As Buddhism is the by far (IMO) the most benevolent of religions. If you can call it a religion, opposed to a philosphey" IMHO To some extent religion is a philosophy, or a way of life in which the nucleus of the philosophy is a belief in a higher power. In my case I believe in God. I dont want to get into the whole theological debate with anyone but I was just curious. Peace
bobrek: First of all let me state that I am not here to attack anyone's religion. To some extent, ALL religions have positives within them. I very glad to hear that you don't feel oppressed, but then again why would you feel oppressed? Afterall, you "chose" Catholicism as a form of religion to practice. Or did you? I am 30 years old and 2/3 of my life I grew up a very devout Baptist. Yet I feel that to be one of the most oppressive religions, along with Catholicism, out there. Not in a form of "putting a gun to your head", but the initial intent of religion, from its early creation. Archaeology has uncovered many astonishing facts about man from civilizations long past. Evidence, if you will, that man was created by a higher entity(ies), but not discussed or accepted by the "church". I could go into detail, but quite frankly, I don't feel like doing the typing. I am at work right now. Now as far as backing down in regards to Buddhism. You may see it that way, but I tend to give respect, were respect is due. Let me give you this quote on Buddhism: "Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity" IMO, ALL religions should aspire to this. But sadly it is my belief that very few do. If I have to defend the philosophy that I have attained through the last decade of research, then I will. But we should both agree that "Christianity" and Islam religions are tainted in blood, greed and hypocrisy. FC
