Well, maybe you can propose some better ways to measure it? While numbers might not tell the whole story, it might be even worse to compare players without numbers. I was thinking about using the PER or +/- numbers, but then I don't have Dream's PER or +/- number, and of course those measure the overall impact and since Dream is so much better defensively, Dream's PER or +/- numbers should be superior.
One playoff series when Rudy was wise enough to double DRob but spurs didn't do the same to Hakeem? That's not called on a consistent base, man. Otherwise the Muresan example would be valid.
In my post, I mentioned Elvin Hayes. Since you are obviously enamored with numbers, and worship at their altar, here's some numbers for you... Hayes rode the momentum of his college years into the NBA. The expansion San Diego Rockets, preparing for their second season, made him the first overall pick of the 1968 NBA Draft. As a rookie for the Rockets in 1968-69 he led the league in scoring with 28.4 ppg, ranked fourth in rebounding with 17.1 rpg, and started at center for the West in the NBA All-Star Game. He also set an NBA rookie record for minutes played in a season (3,695), averaging 45.1. http://www.nba.com/history/players/hayes_bio.html How did Yao do his rookie season? Hayes averaged 17.1 rpg, and averaged 28.4 ppg his rookie year, yet you'll find few here, as much as Hayes is admired, who would say he was a better player than Hakeem, although those are much better numbers as a rookie than Dream's. An interesting aside... Hayes averaged 17.1 rpg as a rookie, but was only fourth in rebounding for the season! And if you "want the whole story," I would suggest watching the games. Sadly, it would seem that you missed a bunch of them.
Why is a playoff series not enough? That is 6 games, more games than they face each other in the regular season. Not to mention they are the most important games of the year. What do you want, 5 more games after that just to see what would happen? I think we all know. David Robinson would have ended up in the fetal position and committed to a mental institution. Why would you want to do that to the Admiral? I just don't see where you can find a better sample size than a best of 7 playoff series. Also, you can consider that Hakeem thorougly outplayed everyone he faced over 2 years in the playoffs. That included Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq. And guys like Malone and Barkley (though they obviously played different positions). The stats, by the way: David Robinson in series: 23.8 points 11.3 rebounds 2.7 assists 1.5 steals Hakeem Olajuwon in series: 35.3 points 12.5 rebounds 5.0 assists 4.1 blocks 1.3 steals Come on, do we need to say anymore? Hmm, isn't it funny that Hakeem averaged 5.0 assists while DRob only 2.7 despite the fact that DRob was SUPPOSEDLY the only one double teamed?
Added note: In the 1994 and 1995 Finals, Hakeem outscored Patrick Ewing and Shaquille O'Neal in EVERY SINGLE GAME.
Now we are getting there. I love it. I have a better link for Hayes's stats here http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hayesel01.html. For comparison purpose, since Dream and Yao never played in the 60s, and there is no benchmark player who played both in Dream and Yao's era, so why don't we compare the numbers closest to the time when Dream played: let's pick year 1980-81, 4 years before Dream's first season, and suppose Hayes was still in his prime, so his number was 21/11, the best for him from 1973-84. So is Hayes better than Dream, the answer is NO, Dream's first season in http://www.nba.com/history/players/olajuwon_stats.html was already 21/11 and Dream's best season was 27.8/11. Is Hayes better than Yao, well, Yao has never played in the 80s, still the 80s stats looked to be similar to the 90s stats based on Dream's numbers if you take minutes played into consideration. The 90s stats based on Shaq's numbers are similar to the 2000s stats as well. So the answer is offensively, Yao is better than Hayes right now. See, we can make arguements based on numbers.
Good numbers. That's when DRobinson got double-teamed and Hakeem got single coverage. Now someone with time can dig out the stats Hakeem against the Seattle Supersonics in playoffs against Gary Payton and Kemp. I will be surprised Hakeem won't do better than 24 PPG since Hakeem is indeed better than DRobinson. That would make the argument even strong.
No, we can't and it's because you are a dumbass. It is impossible to argue with a dumbass for the simple fact that they are a dumbass. Therefore I am not going to argue with you about the commonly known fact that Hakeem is better than Yao. Perhaps if you were not a dumbass we could discuss this, but if you weren't a dumbass we wouldn't even have to discuss it because you would know, as everyone else does, that Dream is the better player.
If Hakeem wasn't getting double teamed then how come he averaged 5.0 assists while Robinson averaged 2.7? Oops. Also, are you going to argue that Hakeem was never double teamed throughout the 1994 and 1995 playoffs? Because he avereaged 28+ and 33+ ppg those 2 years. I'd like to hear your excuse as to why Hakeem was so consistently dominating over multiple series against superb talent. And I'd like to see some support for your assertion that Robinson was doubled and Hakeem wasn't. Because I don't buy it.
One 6 game series doesn't make it a consistent base, especially under certain conditions. For example , in Yao's 2nd year playoff series against Lakers, Shaq was hold to 17ppg, his lowest career playoff average at that time, does that make Yao a better defensive player than Hakeem? Certainly not. Between 1990-1996 regular seasons, when both Drob and Hakeem were in their prime, Drob averaged 21/12 against Rox, Hakeem averaged 24/12 against Spurs. Hakeem was better, but by no mean dominated DRob. That's a better sample than one playoff series when all the games were played within several days.
I would really love to know the ages of the guys who are even try to say it would be even or further more saying in a few years Yao would be better. Dream played in a era where it was brutal to be a big man and I don't believe Yao could have dealt with the brutality of the league back then. I agree he has improved by far from his rookie year. My opinion is Dream was just to quick and and Yao would definately deal with foul problems playing against Dream; he would just be too quick for Yao to deal with.
I am not going to argue with you. As a matter of fact, I would suggest Clutch BAN you by saying stuffs above. If you can't make rational argument, you would be a failure in your life.
Why on earth would a bunch of spread out regular season games be more meaningful? You don't know what kind of injuries happened, who was on a back-to-back, and what kind of supporting cast they had. Not to mention that regular season games don't mean as much as playoff games. Who cares if one guy outplays another in Game 12 of the regular season. Does anyone care that Gilbert outscored Kobe 60-45 recently? In the playoff series, you know both guys had great supporting casts, otherwise they wouldn't be in the playoffs. You know they are pretty much playing with similar rest because they are playing each other the same days. We know they were both healthy. Also, it seems to me that it should have been easier for Robinson to make adjustments to stop Hakeem, since the game would be fresh in his mind. But he was just consistently outplayed.
A player becomes great because he is great. Rule changes might affect them, but not opponents. For example, after Hakeem, Drob, Ewing etc. slowed down by age or inuries, guys like Shaq and TD didn't become more dominant. They were just same. After the rule change, their effectiveness even took a hit.
A bunch of games spread out through many years is a better sample than several games within several days. If you do scientific research, you'd know that. I like the word outplayed. That's what I meant. Hakeem was the best center in NBA when he was in his prime, he consistently outplayed the other dominant centers, but just not to the degree of dominant, let alone destroy them with ease. That is what my guess of what would happen if Dream played current Yao.
Bonzi Wells had a crazy series against Spurs in playoff, Jereme James had a crazy series a year before. But James is still a scrub, Bonzi is.. well, Bonzi. Regular season games through out the year prooved that.
I agree with you during the regular season Hakeem didn't dominate guys like Robinson. Sometimes he would outplay them and sometimes they would outplay him. But Hakeem took his game to another level in the playoffs and I think that is where the true colors of both Hakeem and Robinson came out. I think it would be similar with Yao right now. Yao and Hakeem would be a good regular season matchup. Both would average 20+ points. But in the playoffs Hakeem would do to Yao what he did to Rob and Ewing. BUT Yao is still pretty goung, in a few years I think Yao can be the same as Hakeem, and dominate guys in the playoffs. Then we can have this argument again. Personally, I wouldn't mind Yao surpassing Hakeem and bringing us some more championships!
