NBC will soon be on the case. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/1187f320-8b...uid=f98b03ba-4d11-11da-ba44-0000779e2340.html [rquoter]Hamas says Abbas seeks war By Sharmila Devi in Jerusalem and agencies Published: December 15 2006 02:19 | Last updated: December 15 2006 13:21 Security forces loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah fired on a Hamas rally in the West Bank on Friday and firefights erupted between the rivals in Gaza, pushing the Palestinians closer to civil war. “What a war Mahmoud Abbas you are launching, first against God, and then against Hamas,” senior Hamas leader Khalil al-Hayya told a Gaza City rally of 100,000 Hamas supporters, who fired their guns in the air and chanted “God is Greatest”. ADVERTISEMENT At least 32 Hamas supporters in the West Bank city of Ramallah were wounded by gunfire from Abbas’s forces, hospital officials said. Several were in critical condition. On Thursday Israel prevented Ismail Haniyeh, the Palestinian prime minister, from returning to Gaza in order to stop him bringing in cash possibly donated by Iran. Reports said Mr Haniyeh, from the Hamas movement, was carrying $35m (€26.5m, £17.8m) in cash, believed to be part of the $350m he raised during a regional tour that took in Iran, Syria and Qatar. He was later allowed entry, but without the cash. However, anger spilt over into violence following the order to close the Rafah terminal on the Gaza-Egypt border, given by Amir Peretz, Israeli defence minister. The closure prompted about 2,000 Hamas supporters to storm the terminal where they had a gun battle with guards. Others used explosives to blow a gap in the concrete wall dividing Gaza and Egypt. Mushir al-Masri, a Hamas legislator, said the closure “could lead the region to an explosion and the Zionist enemy and its allies will bear the responsibility for the consequences”. The European Union monitoring team at Rafah said its 16 staff were evacuated and safe. Hamas members have carried about $80m in cash into Gaza since March, when the west imposed an aid boycott aimed at bringing down the Islamic movement but which has increased poverty across the occupied territories. The clashes at Rafah came as Hamas supporters threatened to defy any call for new elections that Fatah’s Mahmoud Abbas, Palestinian Authority president, may make in a speech tomorrow. Months of negotiations between Fatah and Hamas for a national unity government have foundered, along with hopes for an easing of the western boycott. But Hamas and independent analysts say Mr Abbas has no legal authority to call early elections. Mr Haniyeh cut short his trip abroad to deal with the internal turmoil. Hamas to-day plans to celebrate the 19th anniversary of its foundation with marches and demonstrations in Gaza. There were clashes in Gaza and the West Bank this week after Fatah blamed Hamas for the shooting dead on Monday of three young boys who were the sons of an intelligence official loyal to Mr Abbas.[/rquoter]
It seems like the Fatah thugs are not all that interested in the democratic process. They're used to just getting all the money from the international community and re-routing it to their bank accounts. Fatah is interested in restoring elitism back to Palestinian politics, they can't fill their pockets if they're not in charge of government. Both are terrorist organizations, yet somehow the international community was/is more 'comfortable' in dealing with Fatah.
That wasn't loosely, the ARE both terrorist organizations (or at least they both have sub groups that are terrorist organizations with the militant wing of Hamas and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade). Under any reasonable definition of terrorist, they both fit the bill.
It is fairly obvious why if you are paying attention. If Hamas says 'We recognise that Israel has a right to exist.' and a couple of other things then the west will work with them. It is not exactly the random causeless situation that you imply.
Actually, the West has also demanded that Hamas disarm and renounce violence against Israel. The mere recognition of Israel's right to exist wasn't the 'deal breaker'. Moreover, I don't remember Fatah having to meet such criteria. The only 'real' difference between Hamas and Fatah is that Hamas' leadership is not composed of a bunch of two-faced liars/career politicians who would gladly tell the West what they want to hear and turn around and tell their own people what they really mean; with Hamas, the message is consistent. But yes, I understand, it's easier to deal with Fatah, they're more predictable and are more similar to their counterparts in the Arab world, easier to do business with. I can appreciate that...
Fatah actually already had met all of the criteria that they were asking of Hamas. I think most of it was part of the Oslo Accords.
Disarming is not part of the requirement for 'the quartet' to deal with Hamas. And yes, Fatah has renounced terrorism, which was the requirement for both the PLO and Hamas.
UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan repeated his call for Hamas, the Islamic Resistance Movement, to transform itself into a political party on Thursday, while the United States and Germany said the group must disarm and abandon calls for Israel's destruction. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200602/10/eng20060210_241599.html The Quartet reiterates its view that there is a fundamental contradiction between armed group and militia activities and the building of a democratic State. A two-State solution to the conflict requires all participants in the democratic process to renounce violence and terror, accept Israel's right to exist, and disarm, as outlined in the Road Map. http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sg2103.doc.htm Admittedly, Russia has been the only member of the Quartet that hasn't taken a 'hardline' against Hamas in terms of 'preconditions' to talks. The EU, the UN, and especially the U.S. have made no secret about the need to "disarm" and "renounce violence" (not just terrorism, but all forms of armed struggle) before there could be any form of dialogue with the Hamas-led government. I am not talking about rhetoric, I am talking about taking active steps to do so. As far as I know, Al-Aqsa Brigades is still fully operational, armed, and active. A classic example of the game Fatah has been playing for a loooooooong time now...Arafat perfected it.
I apologise you are correct. BUT to keep it in context, that is actually the next step in the mutually agreed upon Oslo Accord. It was supposed to take place after Israel withdrew from Gaza. It was not part of the original American statement of requirements for talks, but was added after the Americans, Europeans, and Russians got together. Rhetoric is the first step. It is important. It is fairly clear to me that the quartet would be fine with the level of compliance found from Fatah.
You may be right. But I think the West at large -- not all, but mostly -- is uncomfortable with the idea of dealing with Hamas. Fatah is more pragmatic and secular I guess, while Hamas is deeply rooted in Islamist ideology and has widespread support in the region. Of course, it doesn't help their cause much that they're partly backed/financed by the Syrians and the Iranians. To a certain extent, Hamas is no different than their counterparts in Lebanon (Hezbollah). So in general, I think there is a an uneasiness there, and some Western governments were hoping that Hamas would take the first step to 'break the ice', which hasn't happened as of yet (they only went as far as to say that they would only recognize Israel when/if Israel recognizes a Palestinian state and ends the occupation -- including settlements -- in the West Bank and Gaza; otherwise, they vowed not to disarm/denounce violence against the Israelis until the occupation comes to an end).
I agree that Fatah is behaving thugishly and is corrupt but Hamas isn't doing much to take the high road. Didn't they recently kill three children of a Fatah official.
yes, it was brutal. BTW is the difference betwen the two groups merely philosophical like Dems an Repubs, or is it religious like sunni and shiite?
Fatah is a largely secular organization while Hamas is religious. My understanding is that Hamas is a Sunni group, as are most Palestinians, but at the same time has been allied with Iran and Hezbollah even though that country and group is Shiite.
http://today.reuters.com/news/artic..._RTRUKOC_0_US-PALESTINIANS.xml&src=rss&rpc=22 can someone help me with the talking points here- is this Bush's fault, or Israel's? Both? [rquoter] Three dead as Gaza gunbattles rage Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:02 AM ET By Nidal al-Mughrabi GAZA (Reuters) - Gunbattles raged between Hamas loyalists and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's forces in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, killing at least three people and wounding a dozen others, medical officials said. Internal Palestinian fighting -- the worst in a decade -- has escalated since Abbas called on Saturday for early elections in an attempt to break a political deadlock with the Hamas government. Hamas has accused Abbas of launching a "coup". Two security men from a force loyal to Abbas's Fatah faction were killed in a running street battle with Hamas gunmen in Gaza City, hospital officials said. Hamas and Fatah traded blame on who started the fight and how the two men were killed. Five children were also wounded. Witnesses and rival factions said a Hamas policeman was killed in an earlier clash at the entrance and inside the compound of the main Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. Rocket-propelled grenades were fired in that incident. Clashes also erupted outside a key security agency controlled by Abbas. While neither the Hamas Islamists nor Fatah have declared the end of a ceasefire agreed on Sunday night, there has been a spate of gunfights and kidnappings of rival activists since then. Most hostages have been swapped. Abbas told visiting British Prime Minister Tony Blair on Monday he was committed to early elections but left the door open for the formation of a Fatah-Hamas coalition with a "technocrat" cabinet that could satisfy Western countries. Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, a senior Hamas leader, is expected to make a major speech in Gaza at 6 p.m. (1600 GMT) to respond to Abbas's election call. Hamas has said it would boycott any polls. The fighting has renewed fears of civil war in the Gaza Strip and the occupied West Bank. In Damascus, exiled Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal said the election call was illegal and that Hamas would take practical steps to stop early elections taking place using "peaceful, popular pressure -- not with violence", the BBC reported. Hamas, which advocates Israel's destruction, has struggled to govern since taking office in March under the weight of Western sanctions imposed because of its refusal to recognize the Jewish state and renounce violence. Hamas and Fatah tried for months to form a unity government to end a power struggle, but talks foundered.[/rquoter]
The fact that not everything is Bush fault, does not mean that nothing is Bushes Fault.(and he made a lot of mistakes) I actually does not see the need to include Bush in this confersation, wouldn't it be stupid to post in the GARM after a rockets loss: The Loss wasn't Bush's Fault
Is this the biggest thing you get out of this... a joy that neither Bush nor Israel is directly respsonsible for this mess?
