I have to ask.. Well, we know Jesus existed. Your'e not saying Jesus is a myth are you? Perhaps you mean that there's no proof of God's existence? or you don't believe there's a link between Jesus being what he is symbolized as in Christianity? As for Jesus being resurrected, the story clearly states he was gone right? As in, his body dissapeared? (note: I am not 100% sure of how the story goes in the Christian faith's eyes, sorry)
I have no contact information in my profile, but I have a suggestion. If there is someone in the office of your church, I could call and leave contact information and/or, you can leave your personal info there too. What do you think? We need to talk by phone before we do anything. This is kind of exciting. I truly believe I have a prophetic message for the modern church, and I appreciate any and all opportunities to share it.
You're welcome, you have asked very reasonable and responsible questions. I want to apologize to you though because I have to zip in and out of the forum. Sometimes I have a few seconds to speed read posts and reply if I can think straight. Sorry, I only have internet at work and I am busy as much as I post it is my de-stress time. No I am not saying that you have to have God in mind before you can communicate with God. I am not saying you have to accept the premise of any God in mind. I am not saying you have to relate anything to God at all. I am not even saying that you will relate to God at all, most people don't. I am saying that if you are wanting to know God you will need His help. If you are seeking the truth about God (notice I said 'if') I would put it this way- ASSUME for this example that there IS 'one true God'. Now if you are seeking this God from the point of confirming to yourself He doesn't exist, then you are not seeking you are accepting a premise He does not exist. But if you are honestly not sure and you are seeking God to know Him or understand His existence then I would call that wanting to know God and He will help you. There are very logical and good reasons to seek after God. God wants everyone to seek Him and find Him. He has left many testimonies and evidences of His existence. It is the way God speaks to us or reveals Himself to us that I may have confused you. God speaks through His creation, through His words and through His Spirit. (there may be other ways also- Angels, dreams, etc) The issue isn't God speaking, the issue is us hearing. You should be asking the question how do I know if God is speaking to me. I don't think any Jew should abandon their own faith to believe in Jesus. The point of any Jew's faith should be to keep God's law and fulfill God's covenants to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The covenants to Moses and King David and to fulfill the prophets. All of this is consistent with Jesus being Messiah. In fact this is what the prophets all spoke of. Instead of abandoning faith the Jew finds fulfillment in the convenants in Jesus Christ. He is the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, the altar, the sacrifice, the feasts, the mediator, High Priest, Savior of Israel, fulfilling the Law and the Prophets... the Annointed one of Israel. This is a great satsifaction for the Jew. Restoring the Kingdom to Israel- the Kingdom of God. (It is a spiritual Kingdom) I apologize for the English translation I used, it is called the NIV and I don't even own one. I used it because I was on the computer. I don't know how accurate it is. What I will clarify I ask you to think about. I checked the original Hebrew and the preceding passages clearly refer to the redemption of Jerusalem, Israel and Zion. The context clearly refers to the Lord reconciling His people. The preceding passage to the one I quoted reads- "Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high." This servant is whom the prophet speaks of in the passage I quoted by direct context. The passages that follow are in the Torah and speak of Messiah's promise of Israels restoration (healing). The Isaiah passage does not mention Jesus of Nazareth specifically, but I believe He is the one that is spoken of. He clearly fulfilled this prophecy in His life and death. Is there another that has fulfilled this or will? I don't know of that. The Christian tendancy to see Jesus in the Torah comes from the New Testament where the Torah is directly quoted in reference to Jesus. But not wanting to get into circular argument, I would also point out to you that logical examination of Jesus life fulfills over 300 specific prophecies in the Torah. There are websites and books that list these if you wish to research. But by testimony it is very difficult and illogical to have one man coincidentally be described by the prophets of the Torah spanning 100's of yrs of writing and still refuse a connection. I believe it would take a specific bias against Jesus to deny the evidence presented by His life. To answer you I would encourage you to be objective and neutral and study the prophets and study the life of Christ and then ask your heart to reveal what is logical. Faith is not a blind leap into darkness, faith is a confidence in finding the truth based upon revelation. Do not be afraid of God speaking to you. You asked about Him speaking to you- the critical step is to examine His words both the words of the prophets in the Torah the words of Christ and his witnesses in the Bible. God uses His word to reveal Himself. I ask you again to read His word and ask Him to reveal Himself. Faith is not merely expecting, but it is also stepping. Step out and ask. Try asking God to reveal Himself when you study His words. You probably heard that Abraham stepped out of his country and went to a place God promised to show him. God said he found that righteous that Abraham would step out, that was Abraham's faith. .[/QUOTE] Yes, if you look hard enough for God, I am confident you will find Him. I do not assume that God has anything to do with your questions, I understand that you have a belief systema and you find it reasonable for you. I also understand that your questions are directed to Christians for your own interest about our beliefs. I have said before you have asked honest questions and sincerely communicated your position. As others have said, the Christian experience is not something that you can just explain take step A,B,C, and poof you have Christianity. It is a faith that cannot be understood without God's help. It is a spiritual mystery in most ways, and it is a divine encounter so logic alone is not enough. Why would God want to help you? Because He loves you. The Holy Spirit right now is pulling in your heart for you to know more. I am not sure you would even have interest in this if God was not desiring to reveal Himself to you. You are closer than you realize. It is no coincidence that you are involved in this thread. God's Spirit is at work. Ask these same questions of God, by reading His words. You will be pleased when God speaks to you. I am confident He will if you will read the Bible with an honest heart. You have demostrated to me that is exactly how you would approach it. Thank you so much, and please let me know what God speaks to your heart.
Can you email me through my profile? I will give you contact info. Thanks look forward to you sharing the message at church.
My understanding of Christianity is that the Crucifixtion and the Resurection are the two parts that are central to the message of Christianity. The Crucifixtion is God's willingness to sacrifice his son to redeem humanity while the Resurection is God's promise of salvation and eternal life. So both those parts are crucial to understanding Christianity. Again with the caveat that I'm not a Christian and am only relaying to you my understanding. While there is archealogical evidence that a man named Jesus existed around that time in Judea, had followers and that man was crucified by Roman authorities there is no evidence regarding the Resurection and I don't think its clear who or if anything is in the Sepulchre at the Church of the Sepulchre. From a skepitcal point of view the idea that Jesus was resurrected and then rose to Heaven provides a rather convenient coincidence regarding empiracal proof that the Resurection happened, if someone says, "that Jesus rose from the dead well show me Jesus?" The self-fulling answer is "I can't because he ascended to Heaven."
No one can offer you proof of the Resurrection. But when I questioned my faith, here was the logic and evidence that "convinced' (for lack of a better word) me that the Resurrection was at least probable. The early Church in Jerusalem (after Peter first preached to non-Jews) aggressively evangelized around the world that they knew. Thomas (an eye-witness of the Crucifixion and Resurrection) went to India. Paul went to Greece, Rome, and Turkey. Modern-day Ethiopia, France, Algeria, and Tunisia were also evangelized in the first century. There were tens of thousands of Christians in Antioch by the end of th first century. Many first-century Christians were executed because they refused to stop preaching what was considered heresy. I have a hard time believing that the commitment would be this great to a lie and that the early Church would be so persuasive in evangelism were they lying.
This post, and this entire thread, reminded me of a quote from my favorite book, "Velvet Elvis" by Rob Bell: "These Christians made sure everybody in their midst had enough to eat. They made sure everybody was able to pay their bills. They made sure there was enough to go around. The resurrection for them was not an abstract spiritual concept; it was a concrete social and economic reality. God raised Jesus from the dead to show the world that Jesus is Lord, and it is through his power and his example and his Spirit that the world is restored. It is important to remember that we rarely find these first century Christians trying to prove that the resurrection actually occurred. For one, a lot of the people who saw Jesus after he rose from the dead were still alive, so if people had questions and doubts, they could talk to somebody who was actually there. But there's another reason: Everybody's god in the first century had risen from the dead. To claim a resurrection had occured was nothing new: Julius Caesar himself was reported to have ascended to the right hand of the gods after his death. To try to prove there was an empty tomb wouldn't have gotten very far with the average citizen of the Roman Empire; they had heard it all before. This is why so many passages about the early church deal with possessions, meals and generosity. They understood that people are rarely persuaded by arguments, but more often by experiences. Living, breathing flesh-and-blood experiences of the resurrection community. They saw it as their responsibility to put Jesus' message on display. To the outside world, it was less about proving and more about inviting people to experience this community of Jesus' followers for themselves." ------------------- "In a letter to a church called Galatia, one of the first Christians, Paul, claimed that "in Christ" - the phrase used to describe this new reality -- there was "neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female." He is calling the entire culture into question, insisting that through this risen from the dead Jesus, the whole world is being reorganized. And in this new reality, every person is equal. Everybody. Paul is the first person in the history of world literature to argue that all human beings are equal."
You know as well as I do that proof of God/religious teachings isn't possible under any form of logic. It's a logical black hole to go there and honestly probably offends a great deal of people and generally doesn't do a great job of convincing anyone. It's impossible to disprove the all-powerful that defies the very rules we seek to utilize to prove said being's existence.
Love the sig Max, good call- the community of believers provide compelling testimony to the resurrection.
To everyone else who replied to a post of mine, I hope I answer your posts here as I simply do not have the time right now to reply to multiple posts. If I don't answer you to your satisfaction, please repost and I'll get to it later. Rhester - nice post. Again, thanks for the reply. (really weird coincidence just happened... "Jesus is Just Alright" by the Doobie Bros. just came on my itunes). Anyways... back to the point... You say I should seek God "to know him or understand His existence," but does this not amount to assuming it exists before you seek the answer? Maybe I'm being too picky (probobly...). Still, I make no effort to hide the fact that I really have no idea whether or not the Judeo-Christian God exists as either Jews or Christians describe it. There is no way to prove it either way, and anybody who says they can prove or disprove God is selling snake oil (I think you would probobly agree with that). Of course if God ever spoke to me directly, that would be another story, but I'm not holding my breath. Why should I go through life wondering if God exists? Why shouldn't I spend time wondering if Zeus exists? Is there really any difference? Fair enough. How do I know if God is speaking to me? How do you know? I actually don't think that Jesus, as described by Christians, is consistent with the Jewish faith. Among other problems, there is nothing in the Torah that suggests that the Messiah will be divine. I will get to more of this later. A couple of things. 1. Do you speak Hebrew? 2. Yes, these passages deal with the Messianic age. No, the servant is not Jesus. The servant is the Jewish people. 3. If, in fact, the "servant" is a reference to the Messiah, then I think you may want to reconsider your faith, as Jesus did not fulfill all of the prophecies in this passage of Isaiah. For example, "He shall see seed, he shall prolong days." Jesus has no physical offspring, nor does the concept of a long life make any sense for a divine being. I disagree that Jesus qualifies as the Messiah. Where is world peace? Shouldn't I be living in Israel? Also, Jesus clearly does not meet the geneological requirement. Honestly, I don't think Christians read the Bible with an honest heart. How many Christians actually refer to the Biblical Hebrew when analyzing text? How many Christians actually scrutinize the evidense, instead of merely taking it at face value? You may be very different than most of the "Christians" I know, but most of them seem full of it to me.
most people in most religions are full of it..... saying christians is just picking the group u want.. most people in most religions are full of it. either too far extreme or dont care at all.
I am in the midst of final grades right now; as soon as I get over with this I will look up your profile and send you an email. Should work, then we can talk.
I think Jesus walked the earth, and started a movement that has many branches. Do I fear him....no. DD
I totally agree and that was the partially the point of my post was to point out that such tings can't be logically proven. My response was to Ehsan who seemed to be stating that an empty sepulchre was the proof of the Resurection. That's a rather self-fulfilling proof. Main stream Christianity isn't alone in this though. One of the knocks on Mormonism is that Jospeph Smith was never able to produce the gold tablets that the Angel Gabriel revealed to him as the book of Mormon. I've heard varying stories that Joseph Smith said he lost them or that Gabriel took them to Heaven. Either way the absence of those gold tablets haven't dampened the Mormon faith. Faith is more important than empiracal proof.
Ultimately, faith trumps the need for scientific "proof," "logic," and the like with those who believe in religion. Any religion. And I think it is fair to say the same regarding an atheistic belief, although some would disagree, and some would say the previous words here trumped that. As an agnostic, I respect those who do believe. All I ask is that they allow my "remove" from religion, or atheism, and to not attempt to force their beliefs (or non-belief), in whatever form, on me and mine. Sadly, that happens far to often. All over the world, millions, of differing religions, seek to impose their beliefs on others, and disparage, or worse, those who hold a belief in something else, or in nothing at all. I hate to keep praising Max, because I'm sure he gets tired of it, but if all those who held ardent religious beliefs were as tolerant and enlightened as our friend, the world would be closer to that paridise so sought after by so many. And it could exist here, on our rolling rock called Earth. D&D. Good People can be Humbling.
Science and religion/faith aren't competing ideas. I believe science is our legacy to humanity's continued evolution while religion can help fulfill the needs for many people's personal evolution.
