OK, I'm pulling out of the flame war thread. lol Some people consider "what the (hell) is up with that" and "I'm speechless" to be an overreaction. Let's talk about it then. Do true superstars really go shopping, or are they so cocky that they think they can win anywhere? What really bothers me about Francis and his agent saying he might go shopping (2 yrs ahead of time at that) is not about loyalty, it is about cockiness (or for people who don't like that word--"confidence" then). Why does Steve think he needs more help than Mobley and Griffin to win? So, Stevie, why don't you think you can win here! What? Do you need Duncan to win? Do you need Shaq? Why do you need anyone but Mobley and Griffin and modest acquisitions like a Rick Mahorn and Bill Laimbeer? Damn Stevie, show some leadership and true superstar cockiness. Quit worrying about other players making the playoffs and other teams being written about more than you. Maybe you should have stayed in college to win a championship if you want to be written about nationally. Those ESPN Sportscenter highlight reels of your alley-oops aren't enough, are they. Well! Start winning then if you are such a superstar. I'm sorry, so far to date Steve Francis is not a natural leader. He tries too hard like a posing celebrity who is trying to be like Mike--like that shoulder-back strut with the pouting lips after timeouts. Be yourself Francis. Be a winner. Exude it! Don't even think about needing to shop around for placement with other superstars. True superstars do not need to shop around!! If you want to be like Mike, you first must be a cocky b*stard (substitue "confident hero" if you think my phrasing is negative)!
I agree. I'm not trashing Francis, or calling him an egomaniac or not saying he's NOT winner. My problem with Francis, and I think this is what crispee is getting to, is that Francis doesn't ACT like a dominate superstar. He doesn't have that killer instinct, and he doesn't have that mindset to carry a franchise. You can develop that, many players have developed it, but Francis seems willing to go to a winner instead of building a winner. If we could put Mobley's fire, intensity, and cockiness into Francis we would have a monster. The cocky attitude that Mobley has that turns off a lot of people on the BBS is the type of attitude that ALL superstars have. Jordan had it, Barkley had it. Ewing, Shaq, Kobe, Isiah, Magic, Bird, Payton they ALL have it. And they carried their teams to or to the brink of championships. The fact that Francis is even CONSIDERING leaving in 2 years concerns me NOW! Make no mistake Mobley is the emotional leader of this team and the guy who seems to rally the troops emotionally. That sounds all well and good but Francis is the most talented guy on the team and the guy capable of being THE franchise, and until he gets that mindset that HE has to make his teammates better he'll be surfing around the NBA "just wanting to win".
He's a 24 year old that doesn't want to commit to anything. Do you know any that do? He'll be alright. We have to realize that this is an average team with a couple of good players, and he's one of them. He's gonna LOOK around, and MJ didn't help matters by publicly saying he was clearing cap to possibly get him. Yea, I agree all the posturing is stupid, but Rudy needs to tell these guys to grow up, and not celebrate after beating the Hawks. They should go into cities expecting to win. Jerry Sloan or George Karl would have torn a new one into anybody acting like that.
Sheesh, it's not as if Francis called a press conference to announce he's not sure what he'll do in two years. He was asked a question and answered honestly. I have no problem with what he had to say. Hell, if the Rockets have not made the right moves in two years maybe he SHOULD leave! I think this conversation is a complete waste of time. As for the "superstar" tag. I still think it's early for that. He is on the road to superstardom and I think this year will be his breakout year...THEN when can see if he has what it takes to carry the label. How many of today's superstars were considered superstars after just 2 years? Francis didn't have the hype coming into the league that Kobe and Shaq had. He's had to earn most of his praise. Old School
crispee You are entitled to you opinions, but it doesn't make them facts. Can the Rockets garuantee, in 2 years, Les will still be the owner, Rudy T still head coach, CD, Cat, Mo T, Ed G all still here and healthy? 2 years ago, it was almost a lock, that Dream would retire a Rocket. **** happens. MJ, that cocky b*stard, went shopping for a whole different sport. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- crispee fact #1: I believe true superstars are allowed to make waves on teams and complain to management. Only in basketball though. Unlike other sports, one superstar makes a huge difference to winning. It is their team, and they have the right to insist the team is built around them, including getting coaches fired. So, why go shopping? Exude cockiness! Take charge Stevie, if you think you are championship material. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you watch any other sport? Have you ever heard of football, Denver Broncos, John Elway? (Just one of many) Wasn't Barkley a cocky b*stard in Philly? They shopped him. Sports are full of cocky bastards that never win championships. This board is also. Sometimes a cocky b*stard isn't a "confident hero", but just a cocky b*stard.
So Duncan's not a true superstar then? McGrady isn't a superstar? Shaq? The entire premise of this thread is terribly flawed. Just more overreaction as far as I can see...
I can't speak for crispee, but my point is, and what rubbed me the wrong way, is that during a time when Francis should be the leader, rallying the team together, and trying to motivate them he is bemoaning the Rockets inability to get to the playoffs, talking about going to a winning situation, and things like that. I don't think Francis is serious about leaving, but during a time like this a superstar leader shouldn't be talking about missing the playoffs and "just wanting to win" he should be putting on the mindset of "I'm tired of losing so I'm ready to go and get to the playoffs". I don't know, it just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't think Francis is a bad guy, a selfish guy or a greedy guy. And I know he is young, but a key player went down with an injury and this is the time you rally the troops. Look at it this way, how do you think the other players reacted if or when they read that? They know Francis granted, but when they looked towards Francis and how their future was gonig to be this season how do you think they felt with these comments, whether Francis meant them or not? THAT'S what I'm concerned about. Not him leaving, him taking over the reigns of this team physically, mentally and publically. This should have been the perfect time for him to fire up the team and give them up. Instead he seemed a bit down and subdued. This isn't a losing team, this is a 45 win team. We're not the Clippers of years past, or the Bulls or Wizards. This team has hope, and it all rides on Francis, and he seems down and kind of defeated.
This might clarify what crispee and RocksMillenium are talking about. I think they wish Francis had said something like this: Warriors Wrap Up Hughes, Jamison by Brad Weinstein San Francisco Chronicle October 17, 2000 The Warriors exercised their fourth-year option on the contracts of guard Larry Hughes and forward Antawn Jamison, ensuring that the organization can watch its best talents play together for at least the next two seasons. [. . .] "I can't see myself playing anywhere else,'' Jamison said. "This is home. They (the Warriors) know I plan on being here more than four years. This is where I started my career, and this is where I want to end it. My thing, my dream, is to get this franchise back on its feet. If I don't accomplish that, I haven't accomplished anything.''
Personally, I think this is all the Chronicle's fault...What kind of question is that? How is he supposed to react if Houston offered him a max deal? How would YOU react if someone offered you $100 million?? Hell, he probably thought it was a trick question. He was just saying what he thought everyone wanted to hear, and a lot of people read too much into it... He will sign...believe...
crispee Could Steve be doing, in fact, what you suggest? quote: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- crispee fact #1: I believe true superstars are allowed to make waves on teams and complain to management. Only in basketball though. Unlike other sports, one superstar makes a huge difference to winning. It is their team, and they have the right to insist the team is built around them, including getting coaches fired. So, why go shopping? Exude cockiness! Take charge Stevie, if you think you are championship material. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Making waves? Inticing/pressuring the Rockets to include Mooch in the team that is built around him? That cocky b*stard! And you crispee, you sly dog, are my new "confident hero".
Why start a new thread for this...basically saying something similar to Cat's posts in the other one...read Clutch's reply there, it says it all.
Det,,,,the other one turned into a flame war with gettingcurried. The intention of this thread is to discuss it more thoughtfully. btw: do you have any opinion to express here. <b>SamCassell</b> I said true superstars don't <b>have to shop</b>. I never said they were defined by whether they shop or not. Duncan seemed legitimately worried about the franchise moving cities if they didn't get a stadium...no? I never considered Shaq a true superstar when he was 1-22 (?) in final playoff series. He finally settled down. McGrady shopped because he largely plays the same game as Vince...that's different. <b>Old School, Francis has a reputation for making this a big deal</b> imo, this is a big deal worthy of sitting him down to question him, because if he is serious...now is the time to trade him for a center, and build around Griffin and a stud center....trade the out of position PG if he wants to make excuses for losing...."I want to win, and if we don't, I will leave." good grief! How can you read his quotes and not feel like it is coming from a person inclined to point fingers, and not except the blame for losing? I guess we can say it was due to him being asked a question. Come on, how old were you when you got asked a dicey question at work and knew better than to suggest you were inclined to blame mgmt and go shopping....especially if you already had a reputation to do that to your last employer! Francis has a reputation for these comments. imo, it could be a big deal! We could lose major trade value if he doesn't sign an extension. <b>Francis is wrong about the extension...he doesn't get 2 yrs of waiting</b> We must get him signed to an extension by Oct 31st 2002....ie, next year. If he wants to wait 2 years, then that means he WILL become a free agent. If he doesn't sign an extension do you not think his trade value for us immediately drops! Sure we have the 5th year match lame thing, but that is only for 1 year. If he doesn't sign an extension before his 4th season begins, then he intends to shop. If he intends to shop, history shows that we lose trade value, plus I personally think it shows he doesn't have confidence in himself like Jamison. <b>Just win Stevie....make it happen by your Will</b> My point is that ZRB uses logic to say that the Rockets win 54 games last year if they didn't have those mental lapses games. Well, those mental lapses games are on Francis. He cannot let himself or the team come out slowly in the 1st quarter....ever! It shouldn't take 3 years for him to learn how to prevent slow starts. To me, it is not a sign of "wanting to win;" it is a sign of having a tendency to make excuses. I don't think CD or Rudy need encouragement to improve the team, so the argument that he is pushing mgmt who just landed him Eddie Griffin is bunk.
First of all, he has only been in the league two years. He is learning a position that takes years to master in the NBA. Secondly, what more could you have asked of him in his sophomore season? He averaged 20 points, 7 boards and 7 assists, while hustling all over the place. I never saw a game where Francis came out passive. If he wasn't shooting, he was still hustling like crazy, diving for loose balls and tearing down boards that our pitiful front court couldn't hope to get. If the Rockets fail to surround him with a good supporting cast (a competent front court would be nice), then he has every right to leave. If Rudy fails to teach the team some defensive strategies again, then he has every right to leave. With that said, you are making too much out this. That was "press-talk", nothing more. Still, I should have expected a reaction like this. How typical of much of the BBS crowd. You're satisfied when a player says hundreds of good things, but you pounce as soon as anything other than what you want to hear comes out of their mouths.
My opinion is the following: Your argument has a flaw: Just because CD or Rudy might not NEED encouragement to improve the team, that doesn't mean that that cannot still be exactly what Francis wanted to express.
Yes RocketsMillenium, The timing of the quotes is what bothers me, too. This is either a stupid comment by someone who doesn't know what being a leader is, or this comment is to be taken very seriously considering Francis's past, because we are majorly screwed if Francis leaves. One thing is for sure: As a GM, I would not let the luck of injuries and the whims of a player known to leave teams to dictate my future. imo, you have to sit him down and take this seriously. It doesn't take a genius to realize our defense sucked the last 2 yrs because of devasting injuries to the front line. We are all frustrated with this. If Francis could let his frustration with injuries provoke him to leave, the best thing to do is fix our front line by trading him....and banking on Griffin being our superstar, rather than risking Francis banking on joining Duncan. Think about it: If we talk about how Duncan could force a sign-n-trade to come to play with Francis....if we can dream that, aren't you at all scared that the reverse could actually happen.
How do you propose to do that? We wait? Enough with saying we are making too big a deal about this. Why is anyone assuming that I am making more of a big deal than we should...which is to sit him down and try to find out. We shouldn't passively wait on the possibilities of losing him. I don't see this flaw. If I think the idea that Francis can posture to the public and thereby light a fire under CD and Rudy to work harder with player acquisition is bunk, and you say Steve might actually believe he can....the idea can still be bunk. imo, it is bunk for Steve to think that, because CD and Rudy are far from representing a management team that doesn't try their best. You can disagree and say CD and Rudy make bad choices, dont try, or get lucky....but the argument isn't "flawed," merely you agree or disagree. To me the argument for Stevie is the one most obvious: He will bail if our bad luck with injuries continues and we stay losers, and he has a right to do it. And the GM better damn sure not let that expressed possibility hurt us. Sitting him down and taking this seriously is the prudent approach.
OK, I'm getting out of the Francis is not the Franchise thing. lol Some people consider "It's two years away" and "It's an important decision that he hasn't even gotten around to yet" to be an underreaction. Let's disscuss it then. Do true superstars really go shopping, or do they just sign extensions 2 years ahead of time hoping things will work out okay? What doesn't bother me about Francis and his agent saying he might go shopping (2 yrs ahead of time at that) is loyalty(it's a business), and cockiness. Why does Steve need to worry about business right now when he can win with Mobley and Griffin this year? When he comes around to contract time, then he can decide where he wants to go. So, Stevie, why do you think you can wait till your contract year to decide where you want to play? What? Do you think you are Duncan? Or Shaq? Hill? Why do you need anyone but Mobley and Griffin and modest acquisitions like Lanky and Morris before you make up your mind? Damn Stevie, hurry up and sign your career contract here. Quit worrying about other players making the playoffs and not getting the respect you should get. Maybe you should become a transvestite if you want to become more famous. Those ESPN Sportscenter highlight reels of your alley-oops aren't enough, are they. Well! Start wearing those pumps then if you are such a superstar. I'm sorry, so far to date Steve Francis is not a natural drama queen. He tries too hard posing like Mike with pouting lips. Be yourself Francis. Don't ignore your inner child. Exude it! Don't even think about needing to shop around with other superstars. True superstars shop casually!! If you want to be like Mike, you first must be a cocky b*stard with the bald head and the shoes and the what-not.
Wow. I guess this "Francis is leaving" hysteria is the natural successor to this summer's shark hysteria. You people must have too much time on your hands and too little to worry about. This quote implies nothing about him planning to leave. Nothing. It is not a threat. The least charitable thing you can infer from it is that Francis is keeping the heat on all of his teammates -- and the owner -- to improve the team. And frankly, if he thinks Les Alexander needs that additional pressure to make sure he spares no effort or expense in pursuit of a championship, I agree. If Francis doesn't do what it takes to produce wins, none of you would condemn Rockets executives for trading him. He's entitled to demand the same of them.
This has been completely blown out of proportion. Talk about overreaction. The guy wants to WIN. I don't see why everyone is so upset about his comments. When I read that CD said that this year could be ANOTHER development year, I almost puked, for chrissakes. This is ridiculous. He is just making sure that management is QUITE aware, that unless the right moves are made to improve the team, it's a not a given that he will stay around. I mean, c'mon, starting KT for an ENTIRE SEASON? Gimme a break, it's ridiculous, we are throwing the towel before the season even starts and from his comments, it would seem that Francis feels that way too. He is just putting some pressure on management's shoulders to improve the team and make it competitive. Otherwise, "don't count me in as I am not in it just for money's sake!" He is seeing the writing on the wall, and it doesn't look pretty when our damage control plan for Mo going down is starting KT. Now that the arena has been approved, it seems that the luxury tax is the teams main area of concern, and that just won't do. If the team makes the playoffs and improves, he will obviously sign. Some people are going into panic mode way too soon for their own good. Now get Mason over here and let's get this team into the playoffs! PS: Oh, and Swopa, don't forget that those comments were made AFTER Jamison got his extension. He didn't sound nearly as loyal as that before getting it. I remember reading some comments of his that nearly DEMANDED an extension, if I recall correctly.
