I would actually consider your invitation if you are really serious. I am a college/university professor. I have been a lay-minister for many years and have spoken in hundreds of churches of various denominations. I have been a corporate trainer, marriage and family seminar presenter, government trainer, etc. I recently wrote and presented two articles (working on a third) on the state of modern Christianity, especially the Church Growth Movement. I am about two hours north of Houston. Talk to me. Again, if you are serious, we need to have a phone conversation.
rhester- thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I have some responses and some more questions: I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that you have to have God in mind before you can communicate with God? If so, then aren't you already accepting the premise of whatever God you have in mind? If I relate everything to God, then of course I will see many things that confirm God's existence to me. That doesn't mean that God exists, and it works just as well for the God(s) of any other religion. If you're not saying that, then you must admit that nobody should ever beleive in God unless God specifically speaks to them. Since God has never spoken to me, by that logic, I shouldn't beleive in God. Now, all that is just about God. This is why I'm not an observant Jew. Even if I were, though, I still don't see how any of what you said gives me any reason to beleive that Jesus is the Messiah (I'll get to the Isaiah passage lower down). I still don't see why any Jew would abandon their own faith to beleive in Jesus. A meaningless metaphor is not going to convince anybody that Jesus is speaking to them. If you are implying that the "he" is Jesus, then you are simply wrong. This passage clearly refers to the Jewish people, not Jesus. There are some key mistranslations in your version that cloud the issue, and the prior verses leave no doubt about whom Isaiah is speaking. See, this is the problem I have with Christianity, specifically. Many Christians take faulty English translations of a Hebrew text as definitive, when there is much more to these passages than can be understood by appeal to the English version alone. The other thing is (and I think this is where the previous poster's childish metaphor came from), Christians have a tendancy to look for references to Jesus in the Torah where there are none. Why try to rationalize your beleif in Jesus when you are supposed to rely on faith? Again, I have to ask, why hasn't God revealed himself to me? What if I die tomorrow? I will not have had a chance for redemption. That does not seem to be consistent with an all-loving God. Also, you are once again framing things in terms of God without any indication that God has anything to do with my questions. Is that not why you beleive in God? Because you actively look for God in everything? If you look hard enough for something, you'll find it. I think that beleif in God is merely a case of finding something where there actually is nothing.
I actually agree with you. However, for what it's worth, observant Jews beleive that Judaism follows from reason, not faith. Their reasoning is much more compelling than what I get from Christians, but that's probobly because I'm exposed to deeper conversations on Jewish theology.
If I were looking for my future wife, would it be fair to say that she hasn't revealed herself to me if I'm enjoying going out, being single, and hanging with my boys? I want to find her but if I'm not really open to finding her, I probably won't. I don't really know how to describe it. (And I've been told if I can't describe it then it can't be real...to which I utter the word Quantum Physics and it acts like bug spray - they scatter. Sorry, I LOVE quantum physics, string theory, entanglement, etc...) I mean, we have to put ourselves in a position to be spoken to. It's kind of like when people say there are no athiests in a foxhole. Most of the time it takes someone being broken in order to be rebuilt - sometimes not though. There is a difference between Christ and others. Christianity is not based on performance - performance is a byproduct. It's just a very simple acceptance or non-acceptance of a gift. It's certainly a paradox though.....I mean, how can possibly the greatest gift ever concieved simply be free? In our world, everything costs something but this gift is free. It almost weird, really. MAKE NO MISTAKE though - many hard-right Christians will come across as holier-than-thou. They don't represent all of us who aren't perfect. We laugh at those people as well sometimes. The media shows them because they're news-worthy and controversial not because they're avg. everday Christians,
I thank you for this description, because it is actually quite clear to me now why this is considered idolotry in Judaism. You said that Jesus is God's word turned into flesh. Well, that's not surprising, because everything in the universe is God's word. "And God said, let their be light..." In Judaism, worshiping lightness or darkness would be a case of idolotry. Similarly, praising Jesus is idolotry.
How can I accept a gift I've never been offered? None of what you said answers this question. You basically said that I have to beleive in Jesus before I can find him. But if I do that, then I would already have beleived in him! At that point, everything would appear to connect to Jesus, even though nothing really would. God gave us rational minds, right? Why on earth would he expect us to beleive something completely irrational? It makes no sense.
I wish I could make it make more sense but I can't. As for the gift, it's a standing offer it just has to be claimed. Everyone has that 'lotto ticket' if you will. I really do wish I had better use of my thoughts in text. As for making sense, quantum physics, the universe's physical boundaries, dark matter, ghosts, teleportation, time travel, etc...none of which make sense or have reason... To say the universe just goes on forever and has no end makes NO sense, yet we accept it. It's hard to imagine that just because we can't figure out something with classroom-based reason, that it can't carry legitimate weight. Honestly, I believe that faith is the 'real' and everything we see and feel with our bodies is the illusion. Of course, I could be an angel...and then I'd just be pulling your leg!
Except that quantum physics DOES use "classroom-based reason." And I'm still waiting for my lotto ticket.
It does use classroom based reason to a degree but with different dimensions and 'theoretical' particles, it's all guesswork. I mean, we don't even understand gravity. It permeates our entire universe and yet a comb run through my hair placed near a piece of paper circumvents the entire pull of gravity from the whole planet. There are many paradoxes in Science that have no reason...perhaps God is quantum? The Bible said that 'the mind cannot concieve and tongue cannot express' so...I guess it's not just my lack of vernacular...maybe? Anyone?
It is basically about how the founding fathers and other American leaders balanced their own faith and their belief in religious freedom, but now that I think about that the book doesnt make sense for what you were talking about. Better book... American Protestantism by Winthrop Hudson. It covers the history of Protestanism in America from 1607 to like 1914, I think. "...the people are Protestants; and of that kind which is the most adverse to all implicit subjection of mind and opinion. This is a persuasion not only favoriable to liberty, but built upon it." - Edmund Burke
Yes there are things that science does not (yet) explain. What does that have to do with God? Basically, you have no argument here. I've asked for my lotto ticket, and your God didn't give it to me. Now it is time for me to concern myself with things that are not so absurd.
MADMAX, I've made it clear that I can only portray this using analogies that I know. However, if he asks me 100 times, I'll try my best to give 100 of the best answers that I can. Again, SYHY, I'm sorry that you feel may feel disgusted with my anti-intellectual point of view. I'll try to explain this the best that I can, not the best that Billy Graham can, but the best I can. Honestly, that is ALL I can try. As for the lotto ticket, it was meant to be kind of funny. I didn't mean to portray my Saviour as holding a Cash 5 and it's my mistake that you took it literally. I won't use such an analogy next time. I wish you had your tangible proof - I really do and I'm sorry that God didn't knock on your door with that ticket. However, my analogy stands - 'my GOD' as you so respectfully refer to him, gave you your lotto ticket. He can't be blamed because someone exercises their (Or 'MY GOD') God-given right not to. ***LOTTO TICKET*** If you ask the Lord to come into your life and fill you with that spirit, you would be saved. I know it sounds simple and I know you'll respond to me as some wacko instead of being serious. Again, I've had people attack me all my life over this. Would I hope that this remains respectful? Yeah, but it looks like it probably won't so I'll just answer and respond the best I can. I can't describe my salvation to you through our alphabet. Do you understand that I can't verbalize what I know inside my heart...kind of like loving my mom. I just love her. I can't tell you all the things I do for her, tell her, show her, buy for her and use that to show you how much I love my mom - I just love her with my entire soul and would truly lay down my life to save hers...but I can't explain that to you...and without proof, I understand that my points with you will NEVER have validity. I'm comfortable with that but I'll continue to try if you'd like. However, even if someone screams to you that you're not proving to them that you love your mom - it still doesn't change the FACT that I do indeed love my mom. Again, I KNOW that this can't be proven to you. So, in that area, I fail because faith itself lacks evidence. To those who only believe in evidence, they may not understand faith....or they just may just want to pick at me. Either way is fine. But if someone TRULY asks the Lord to come into their life, at that point, I feel that would constitute faith. I believe you'd be saved at that moment. As for science, that's a different horse. I don't have to prove anything in science. It's up to you guys to prove to me. Tell a scientist to prove to me how singularity can exist and how it works on the horizon of black hole. Then watch as I take the easy way out and just play skeptic all day. How? Because I know, no matter what science ever does, it can NEVER prove a singularity because it deals with observation, time, and gravity - both of which exists in different states for the black hole, the singularity, and the observer. That is a piece of science which is unprovable. However, it doesn't mean a singularity doesn't exist. It simply means that for it to exist, it has to be unprovable. You can't see a blackhole - you can only see it's effect on its surroundings. Your sight can't see out of it and can't see in it. Light itself can't escape it. The only real proof is inside it but you can go in and get it because it's not there. Right before you know it exists, you don't exist and therefore there can be no proof. As for God, He's like a blackhole - you can't look and see God in me, you can only see God's effect on my surroundings. Now, I'm sure that everything I wrote will be torn apart...and then, as I exhale, I'll begin writing it all again...
First of all, I really appreciate your taking time to answer my questions. In no way do I mean to be condescending or disrespectful in any way. My use of wit is to show the absurdity of some of your logic, nothing more. Now, I think you clarified some things in this post, so I will respond. Is your entire relationship with Christ/God predicated on analogies? Before you say no, really consider the question. The mind is very powerful and certainly capable of constructing within itself a non-existent being that may seem very real. Not disgusted at all. I find your point of view interesting. That's why I continue to ask questions. I really appreciate your effort. I didn't take it literally. I know what you were saying. What I'm saying is (and this is one question you haven't fully anwered), if God is all-loving, then how could he possibly require irrational faith as a condition for redemption? It seems very cruel that he would never offer me salvation, and he hasn't Lord, whoever you are, come into my life and fill me with spirit, whatever that is, please. Weird, I don't feel saved. The difference between loving your mother and having faith in God is that you know your mother exists. How do you know God exists? How do you know Jesus was resurrected? Whether you recognize it or not, there is a reason you love your mother. She raised you, provided for you, taught you a lot of what you know. Would you love her if she beat you? If she neglected you? Nothing new here. Lord, come into my life, please. Give me a sign that you exist, for there is nothing in this world that leads me to that beleif. Nothing. Except that there is evidense for black holes and singularities. There is no evidense for God. Also, black holes and singularities may not be provable, but at they ARE falsifiable. This is another big difference between God and science. Science can be proven false, while God cannot. You should really stop with this analogy. There is nothing in science that can be proved absolutely. That doesn't mean that God, which also cannot be proved with the evidense you give me, shares the same status as science! The logic is just not there. Again, I will ask you: why would God give us rational minds and expect us to beleive something completely irrational? Especially when beleiving that absurdity is the one condition for entry into heaven!
Ok, I misunderstood. I also do smile when reading your posts because I enjoy your questions. I'm about to hit the sack so I'll respond to a few and then maybe we can pick this up again later. I have enjoyed it though alot. I understand your questions about analogies and I did think about it. But as a former storyteller and a current teacher, I use analogies to give people and kids a more relevant simile - hazard of my former and current job. Instead of talking about a political figure who leads men, I may use Lebron James and talk about him as a leader of a team and then transition. It's more my way of conveying rather than a basis for anything. As for irrational thinking from rational minds, I COMPLETELY understand what you're saying. But again, I don't understand how my neighbor can kick his dog with a boot tip in the ribs because it was barking and watch the dog fall over and die and have no feeling or...rational thought. Whereas for me, I'm scarred by it. I don't understand how in a dream, I can rationalize flying across the sky and truly believe it in that dream and then wake up and have no idea how I could've believed what I was doing. Seriously, rational thought? How could someone have actually voted for Michael Dukakis or Walter Mondale? Ok....I know - that was a political shot! As for mom, it's not my mom that I was talking about. It was the LOVE that I was talking about. How is it that love, good, and evil are instintive in us? You don't have to be raised by someone to love someone. If someone left you an infant as they died, you'd love that child if you have THAT love in you. That guy who kicked that dog to death and watched him cry and wail and howl as his life left him in torturous pain? That guy may not have THAT love in him. How do we rationalize that irrational mindframe? Your answer is... ...I don't know. I don't know how God judges, how he creates, how he instills or how he compells. I have no idea why He would send His son to die for me...it makes no sense whatsoever....but it does...somehow. I'll try and get back on sometime tomorrow....later man!
I've heard religious people bring up quantum physics, dark matter and black holes to argue that science is as faith based as religion. It is to the point that there is a faith on mathematics and logical reasoning. If someone where to explain to you why black holes exist in language you could play skeptic all day but if they were to explain the math to you that would be a different matter as things like black holes came about mathematically. The amazing thing is that observations now indicate that they actually exists. Finally ShakeYoHipsYao hit upon the key difference between science and religion. Science is falsifiable and doubt is the critical part to science. Almost nothing is totally proven in science to the point that even Newton's Laws have been superceded by Einstein's theories. Also for example the name "Dark Matter" is called "Dark" is because it hasn't been determined if it really exists since we haven't determined what or even it there is any dark matter. That's the point of calling it "dark" since its not proven. For a religious person though God is a fact of faith. You don't subject God to the scientific method.
