wait..to be fair this isn't a matter of believe what you believe and i'll believe what i believe this is a group of people saying, "we believe x. we're telling you we believe x." and your response is: "no, you don't. you all believe y." this isn't a battle over competing theology. this is you telling someone what they believe despite their continued argument to the contrary that they don't believe that way. guy 1: "do you believe humans are causing global warming?" guy 2: "yes" guy 1: "no, you don't." guy 2: "yes...i do!" guy 1: "nah. you don't."
Nice try putting words in my mouth. This is all I'm saying: according to Jewish theology, worshoping Christ is the equivalent of idol worshoping. You will not find anything that I said that is outside of the scope of that statement.
This debate is interesting. There's similar stuff with Muslims. For example, the nation of Islam has almost nothing to do with Islam itself. Also (and I TRULY don't mean to offend) if you believe Jesus was crucified, you're not Muslim. I really hope that one day someone is able to explain the trinity to me. Perhaps he doesn't remember, but MadMax has tried a couple of times. I really struggle with that theory. I'm not trying to adopt it, but I'm trying to at least understand it. Quite complicated.
then i misunderstood your argument, and for that i apologize. it appeared to me you were telling christians that they believe in many gods (more than one). I think it's up to each person to tell you what they believe without being told what you think they believe.
This also depend on your perspective. The Jewish people who followed Jesus believe Jesus was the fullfillment of Judaism and compleletly in line with Jewish theology. Obviously those that don't, believe it's idolatry. Obviously, one's right and one's not and both claim to be Jewish.
the jews that believe that jesus is the fullfilment..... would be now called christians... and yes if you are "jewish" and believe that jesus was anything more then a man you are going against the jewish faith. If a jewish person says "i think jesus was a prophet" he or she is going against the jewish faith. mainly because jesus never prophasized anything.. "i am the FULLFILLMENT of the scriptures" thats what he proclaimed...
I think this is comparable to how many Christians consider Mormonism. Many Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian since they have added on new books to the Bible and new Prophets which aren't recognized by other Christian denominations.
I’m not that familiar with the Mormon practices but it seems to me that the relationship of Mormonism to more main stream Christianity is more like the relationship between the Ismalis and more main stream Islamic faith. The monotheism issue, as Max so aptly put it, involves group A saying that they believe X, and their Bible saying that they believe X, and other groups saying that group A doesn’t believe X but actually believes Y. It’s a little hard to know what to do with a claim like that, but note that some Muslims have the same misconception. The idea of the Trinity and the 3 being 1 seems to be a very misunderstood part of Christianity by some non-Christian groups. It’s a difficult concept for many Christians to understand too, quite frankly, but I don’t think there’s any misunderstanding about the there being only one God. Note also that this discussion mostly relates to relations between the three main groups who believe in the God of Abraham, and we haven’t done any explaining of why this is an important point, for the benefit of the people not in one of these groups.
^ Grizzled; Sorry I wasn't clear I was referring to how Jews might not consider Jews for Jesus Jews since they consider Jesus is the Messiah. Mormons consider Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Book of Mormon as a continuation of the Bible.
I see. The quirk with the Jewish question is about whether being Jewish is about faith or race or ethnicity or some combination of the above. The state of Israel seems to believe that you can be a Jew by virtue of being born to a Jewish mother.
That is true, but I was saying that a Jew who beleives in Jesus is violating Jewish teachings. About the Mormon comparison, I think it applies. They added one book to the Christian holy book, while Christians added a whole testament! Also, you said that we are telling you what you beleive. I still disagree with this assertion. As I explained earlier, there is a lot to Torah that Christians straight up ignore. The entire oral tradition, which is expressed in the Mishnah and the Talmud, is part of it. Somewhere in all that oral tradition, from what I'm told, is some sort of theological basis for equating the worshop of Christ with idolotry. Basically, what I'm saying is that Christianity is not Judaism + Christ. It's Judaism - some stuff + Christ. Otherwise, it would be completely self-contradictory. For Christians to say they are monotheists, they have to appeal to their own unique theology, because Jewish theology considers them polytheists.
From the Jewish people that I know it seems very unclear whether Judaism is an ethnicity or a religion. I have a very good friend who is a secular Jew, he once ate a ham and cheese croissant on Passover, and we were talking about a Korean girl who got adopted by a Hasid family. He insisted that the Korean girl will never be a Jews while he can never stop being a Jew since that is his ancestry and not hers. OTOH I knew a guy in college who was a religiously conservative Jew and he told me anyone could be a Jew as long as they followed the laws of the Torah. Israel is an officially secular state and defines Jewishness as an ethnicity so it has established a practical ethnic definition. My guess is that a Jew for Jesus as long as he met Israel's ethnic definition could be considerd a Jew and an Israeli citizen the same as an atheist who meets the ethnic definition would still be considered Jew.
Ok, here it is: If your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew. You can also convert through a very specific process. Simply following the laws of Torah does NOT make you a Jew. In fact, it is a sin for a non-Jew to observe Shabbat. In Torah, IIRC, there are laws to be followed by everybody and some only for Jews (like Shabbat). My guess is, if the Korean girl was adopted by Hasids, then she went through a conversion process when she was young, and is therefore as much of a Jew as somebody born to a Jewish mother. I am Jewish by birth, but I don't observe all the laws of Torah. I have a lot of respect for my culture and history, but I have problems beleiving in a lot of the mystic stuff, including God. Despite the fact that my life is largely secular, observant Jews wouldn't take a second to recognize that I am, in fact, Jewish.
I have some Jewish heritage, but I am a Christian. Not in the sense of the modernized pop-christianity. I find most mega-churches revulsive. They are essentially modeled after corporate business structures. Their obvious purpose is to increase their bottomline by providing a variety of services to meet "felt needs," which, incidently, is a marketing term. There is no precedent for such a structure in the teachings of Jesus. He offered a completely different paradigm. The early church was a family, a community characterized by service and sacrifice, not "success and significance" a la Rick Warren. I define being a Christian, as one who has experienced the miracle of "new birth," an event created by God himself, the Holy Spirit. This event is initiated, accomplished, and consumated by the Spirit. It does not happen as a result of joining a church, raising your hand, signing a card, or any other work of man. It is a miracle. Once you are on the other side of it, you know it happened. Essentially, the problem of all mankind is lawlessness, evil, sin, self-destruction. There is only One Remedy. Through Christ, God did for man what man could not do for himself. He satisfied His Own demand for justice. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Whoever responds to this sacrifice in faith is "born of the Spirit." His sins are forgiven and he begins a new life in Christ. It is a mystery than extends into eternity past, a heavenly conflict now resolved yet ongoing. Modern pop christianity cannot save you, it has no spiritual power or reality. The pop-theologians of our day have decieved you, they have subsitituted a therapeutic model of salvation which can give you "your best life now" but cannot save you, for the true judicial model of salvation which is rooted in the Scriptures. Study for yourself, and live.
wow. i like this and i agree with it. though, i would encourage you to seek the distinction between rick warren and joel osteen. rick is not a "prosperity gospel" kind of guy.
