In that case, the question becomes: why did this "lock down" defender not receive more minutes on a team that wasn't as good as San Antonio? Sure, Jones was great... but why didn't he play more at the 3? Problem is, Bowen can't hit the 3. He's a horrible shooter and there's no reason to believe he'll improve at his age. Your response seems to be "well, there are other good players on the team." That doesn't eliminate Bowen as a liability. As long as he's incapable of outperforming his counterpart, he hurts your team overall. Why don't we compare Bowen to some other 5th options for contenders? Lakers: Take your pick of Rick Fox, Robert Horry, or Mitch Richmond. Any of these guys is better than Bowen. Kings: Take your pick of Divac, Bibby, or Christie. Whichever of them is the 5th option is better than Bowen.
As a play by play man, Howard is very good. Overall Howard had a good rep in SA up until a couple of years ago. For whatever reason, he became a tad bit more rude on air to callers. Also, his sports talk show had too much 'talk' and not enough 'sports'. From what I've heard, while the 'conflict' story has some merit, his arrogance finally did him in with the Spurs and OAI.
And DA was a 'horrible shooter' before he showed up in SA. Ditto for AD. Bowen can hit the 3. Bowen is a spot up shooter. In the Spurs' offense, that is all they need their '5th option' to be. I think the Mavs and TWolves had better '5th options' than the Spurs last season (Ferry). Did them a lot of good.
MrSpur, 100% agreed on jay howard (i can't believe we see eye-to-eye on something ) . he was extremely rude to anyone who called in with an opposing viewpoint. one time, i heard a caller say that they though the loss of DA was going to hurt the spurs, and that they'd be hard pressed to find someone with the ability DA had. furthermore, they thought the move would hurt the spurs ability to attract free agents in the future. do you know what jay howard did? he hung up on the guy!!! then followed with the comment...and i quote..."another stupid call..." get out and stay out, jay.
re: bowen. the problem, as i see it, is that you are looking at the spurs vs. random, sorry competition. sure, against the twolves, utah, denver, etc. of the league, bwen might be serviceable. those guys have SERIOUS holes on their team and the spurs have OBVIOUS advantages over them. but when you face the lakers, (improved) sacramento kings, etc. the 5th option becomes just as important as the 1st option. look at last year. the lakers played the spurs str8 up. no double team on tim. no double team on dave. at least not in the playoffs, once they figured out the robert horry could hold his own against tim in the post (amazing!). once they did that, the spurs perimeter players - those same perimeter players you keep propping up as spot up shooters - had to do something they were not and are not accustomed to doing: create their own shot. ferry couldn't do it. TP couldn't do it. AD couldn't do it. so now you have bruce bwen. he can't do it either! so now you have steve smith. he can't do it either! so now you have stephen jax. he can't do it either! i'm not trying to bash the spurs per se. i'm just pointing out some facts. the spurs lost to LA because the perimeter players did not (could not) perform. that problem has not been adequately addressed (in terms of beating the lakers) as of yet. until you get another "DA" type player (and no, antonio is not the answer), you will continue to get your guts stomped by the lakers.
Kirgo, you finally got in. The Spurs do need Bowen to fill Sean Elliott's role. But Elliott was very tough on both sides of the ball, there is no, and I mean zero, comparison to the Elliott on the lone Spurs successful team to Bruce Bowen. MDD and verse, I totally agree with you as well about McKey. If the Spurs had resigned DA and could have gotten the FA McKey (this was my formula for them to have a successful offseason), they might very well be in the ballpark with the Lakers. Had they had pulled this off they would only have one major questionmark, the PG spot, and Porter and AD might be functional enough there. But what do they have now? They didn't get a multi-threat player like McKey, and lost their 2nd best offensive player who also was a mult-threat player. Now the AD/Porter situation is THE LEAST of their major questionmarks, with a BIG question about what they will get out of the rapidly declining and rapidly approaching 1-dimesional Smith and a HUGE QUESTION (really more of a certainty) about being stuck with the kinds of SFs (offense only Ferry or defense only Bowen) you only want filling out your 7-8-9 positions on your team (on the bench, and below a 6th man role).
Ok, If I may sum things up.... 1) I think we've established that it is not fair to compare the stats of 1st option high scoring all-stars (as well as guys Bowen may not have even guarded) against a 5th option Bowen whose role is defense. 2) It would be expected that a player who is the 4th or 5th option on a team ain't gonna have the best scoring average. 3) Bowen must have some D if he made the 2nd team all defense 4) Spurs may or may not have the best 123 in the league, but with Tim and Dave at the 45, it doesn't have to be. 5) Last years 123 got SA to WCF. This years 123 is (arguably) better 6) There may be better 5th scoring options the Spurs could have brought in, but not for $716,000 a year. 7) Jay Howard is not a nice guy I guess the question now is... *Is Bowen a liability as 5th option when he is needed to score? *Are the Spurs weaker without a slashing DA? *Have the Spurs improved their chances versus the Lakers? Is Bowen a liability as 5th option when he is needed to score? Well, if the defense tightens up around the top 4 scoring options, and Bowen cannot get it going, all Pop has to do is insert one of several versatile bench players. Is that a liability? Only if you believe Bowen has absolutely no offensive skills at all and that the Spurs top 4 scoring options are not among the best in the league. Are the Spurs weaker without a slashing DA? Id like to still see DA in the lineup. But 2 things are known. Spurs had the best inside game last year, and the Spurs had the best outside game last year. DA added something to the "middle" game. I think Antonio has shown he can fill this need, and the simple fact that we replaced 2 starting "slowpokes" in Ferry and Porter, put them back on the bench, and replaced them with 2 younger & agile players will be a plus. Have the Spurs improved their chances versus the Lakers? Yes, spurs have always matched up well versus LA, except for the WCF. Spurs ran into a confident team on a roll, with players hitting shots at a pace they never will again, against a Spurs team minus DA, with a tired Porter and Ferry unable to fill the DA role, and nobody able to slow down Kobe. What have the Spurs done? Cherokee=capable backup to Drob, can bang with Shaq Smith + AD + Bowen is > DA + Porter+ Ferry Bowen could and should be able to slow down Kobe, which is all we need/want him to do. Replaced a DA who disappeared the last 3rd of the season, and completely in the playoffs, and replaced him with Smith, a proven vet he steps his game up when needed. What have the Lakers done? Lost Ho Grant, a major reason why Tim, David, and Malik were less effective in the WCF, and replaced him with a former Spurs bench warmer-Samaki Walker. Lost Tyrone Lue, who-although I don't remember him being a defensive force in the SA series, he was in the finals. Picked up Mitch, a nice addition but a big "if" I like our chances, time will tell.
Um, Smith can certainly create offense for himself. Stephen Jackson showed some ability in the times I saw him play last season. You forgot to mention Daniels. Parker is a wildcard, but Popovich apparently plans on giving him about 15 minutes a game. I don't think the Spurs perimeter is one of the best one on one crews around, but it's definitely improved over last season. DA excels on the break, struggles in the halfcourt. I think the Spurs have a better halfcourt oriented team than last season. The Spurs managed to get the top record in the league and make it to the WCF with 67 year old Terry Porter and 57 year old Danny Ferry in the starting lineup. Of course, the Spurs do still have one roster spot to fill...and a number of NBA vets apparently looking at minimum contracts. From what I've heard, they are waiting to see if one will indeed take a minimum deal.
The Spurs pursued McKie and Christie not to create a 3 guard lineup with DA, but to replace DA. Perhaps a 3 guard lineup is the way to go next season with defenses having more flexibility, perhaps not. AD/Smith/SJackson would be a nice lineup on offense and adequate defensively, with AD posing some nice problems for opposing points with his size and quickness. Smith's ability to handle the rock will give the Spurs the option of having both AD and SJackson play off the ball some.
Did you not see what the Charlotte guards and Mash, none of whom are superstars, did to Bowen, Jones or anyone else Riley put out there??? If the Heat were getting killed so bad and Bowen could have locked down even one player, don't you think he would have gotten more than around 16 MPG?? ---I'll give you the answer, he obviously couldn't do much defensively plus his offense was absolutely putred (4PPG, 30 something FG, 20 something 3%) playing in a similar low-post oriented offensive scheme (as SAs) against a Charlotte team never known for its D. Because of his total play, Riley could not afford to keep him on the floor when the Heat were getting slaughtered. That is not a good sign for your Kobe-stoppin "savior" to substantially help you. This is not really too relevant, but funny: Isn't Cherokee himself quoted as saying something like "I am proof that if you are 7 foot tall you can always make an NBA roster as 3rd string center"? I am not knocking signing him, but I am not sure even in our desperate center situation we would have signed him because we need more than a locker room cut-up and practice guy out of a back-up 5, any 5 on our team might actually have to play. Well let's see. The Lakers had a series of bad events happen last year. JR was a disaster, their only reliable PG got injured for most of the season, Harper was unable to play meaningfully because of his health, they had infighting, and more often than not just didn't come to play in the regular season. And what happen, they still swept the Spurs on the way to the title. What is in store nexy year? They lost Ho Grant. But in practice, Horry, not Grant was "their effective starting player" as he wa sin there with the game on the line. Horry at the 4 (not Grant at the 4) is what made the Laker's almost impossible to match-up with, and this will not change. Still, losing Grant is a hit, that is true, but it is a much smaller one considering they got Walker to now back up Horry. What else did the Lakers do, they added Mitch, who has JR's skills and physical health with Harper's mind and focus. A good veteran shooter and defender who is the perfect compliment off the bench, or functional starter when need be. They also added Linsey Hunter. Another good 3 point shooter and quality back-up 1. Now they also have insurance as a starter if Fisher by some freaky occurence gets injured again. Losing Lue is not even worth mentioning, she only got significant PT in an unusual circumstance completely unrelated to anything the Spurs do or have (Mr. AI). Hunter is the better player and a veteran to boot, and Penberthy or whatever for most situations was just as effective as Lue. So basically, you have + Mitch + Walker + Hunter - Grant. I'd say that is a big improvement and a lot of insurance just in case the Lakers have all the bad things happen to them that DID happen to them last year. Also, don't forget the major upgrade in Sac. Two of the three best teams in the West got significantly better, and one of them ain't the Spurs.
Yes, but we've also established that LA and Sacramento have superior 5th options. Bowen is still a loss. See response to #1 Bowen is a good defender. Unfortunately, he'd have to lock people down to make up for his putrid offense. He doesn't. Duncan is fantastic. But Robinson is declining, and will continue to slide. One great player, one very good one, one good one, and a bunch of scrubs ain't gonna lead the Spurs anywhere. No, it's definitely worse. At the least, the Spurs took hits at the 1 and 2. You're arguing by reassertion. 6) There may be better 5th scoring options the Spurs could have brought in, but not for $716,000 a year.
MrSpur, I agree with you that the 3 guard line-up would be an interesting angle for the Spurs. But what I am saying they should have looked at McKey (who is a better 3 than Christie) while resigning DA, not instead of. That might have given them the athleticism and all-around skills to be an animal on boths sides of the ball, like the Lakers are. The Spurs now have to earn almost all their baskets the hard way as there as almost no way to generate easy baskets (as you say DA was their best player in the break and in the lane) unless AD unwisely tries to take a 1 on 3 all of the time. The Spurs are stuck. With some combination of Smith, Porter and Ferry out there they will be really slow in defensive rotations and will not generate easy baskets. You can put a group with AD, Jackson and Bowen out there, but then your offensive efficiency and poise goes out the window. Now maybe Smith regains his 94 form, Porter his 88 form, and AD, Jackson and Bowen evolve into better offensive players and better leaders than they ever have, but you are couting on a lot to fall into place.
I don't see Pop going with Porter/Smith/Ferry too often. AD will have a big role next season, no doubt about it. I think he's a tad bit better than you seem to give him credit for. Perhaps if he was coming off his rookie year in Vancouver I could see some of your points, but not today. I think that Stephen Jackson can definitely be a capable reserve. Parker is a wildcard. I've heard good things about him, he performed well in the RMR and Pop supposedly has promised him 15 minutes a game...but I'll wait to see how he does in the actual NBA competition. I'm glad the Spurs are 'stuck' with this lineup.
True. But we're speaking of comparative team strength over last year. Relative to his skills last year, Robinson will decline. Besides, there are very few talented C's remaining. I wouldn't call him a top 5 4/5. Probably not even top 10. Antonio Daniel's best offensive performance saw him net 9.4 points per game to go with 3.8 assists. Yes, he's a scrub. You could stick Moochie Norris in there and he'd get better numbers. I'm skeptical of his PG abilities, additionally. Rose? 7.7 points and 5.5 rebounds... with .438 fg% as a big man. Icky. No range from outside, either (2/17). Oh, and he's 6'7, plays PF, and isn't named Charles Barkley. To consider these guys anything other than scrubs is completely unsubstantiated.
So that's how they're awarding championships now? What team has the best "5th option"? I must have missed that memo. I guess all the Rockets have to do to make the playoffs is get a better "5th option" than all the lottery teams. So now the Spurs suck because they have an All-Star center? Man, a bad 5th option, and an All-Star center--talk about being on the road to ruin. Davis averaged 13.5 ppg in the playoffs last year, on 48% shooting and 94% from the line, including 19 ppg against LA. What a scrub! But I've obviously overlooked the most important point--haven is skeptical of his point guard abilities. Since Scar likes to harp on Bowen's playoff performance against the Heat (over and over and over), I'd be curious to see him compare Steve Smith's playoff record to Derek Anderson's.
No, we're comparing relative gain to relative loss. Bowen is a liability because he's inferior to other team's 5th options. Once again, I'm discussing relative gain. Who cares if Robinson is good? Of course he is. Would you please point out where I said otherwise? My argument is that at his age, he's likely to decline further, resulting in a competitive loss against LA and Sacramento I'm not overly concerned about one playoff performance either way. You'd have to take that up with Desert Scar. In brief, Anderson was injured during the Spurs' crucial series. Smith has a history of early exists for Atl. I don't think either situation means much. Anderson is younge and more athletic. Smith is probably a bit more "canny." I'd rather have Anderson on my team. Smith's knees are questionable as well. I'm not saying the Spurs are a bad team. They're probably the 3rd best team in the Western Conference, and hence the NBA... but I think the Lakers and Kings have managed to separate themselves from everybody else by a substantial measure now. Last year, until the Lakers got obscenely hot, it seemed like the top 6 teams could win the Western Conference. This year, I think it's a two man race, much like it was in 99 with LA and Portland.
Right on Haven. You'll have to carry the torch of objectivity on this one as I am out for a while soon (travelling, nothing to do with some Spurs fans hardheaded stubborness). You'd think calling them the 3rd best team in the West and likely the league wouldn't be so threatening. Steve Smith was supposed to be Portland's playoff answer, and that was about 3 years ago. He was a great player, but that was 1/2 a decade ago or more. What many pro-Spurs folks are asking of him--breaking down the D, playing D himself, setting up the offense, are additional responsibilities he hasn't tried to do since he left Atlanta. If the Spurs ask him to all these things DA did and play DA minutes (and now moving AD to the 1 full time further weakens their back-up 2 spot), they run the risk of burning him out before the all-star break (yes he will always play in each game because he is tough, but at what level his body will allow him to is the question). AD isn't a bad player, I have never said he was, but it is far easier to be successful off the bench or in starting a few games before the teams lay their sites strait on you. He was sure thing as a quality bench SG/PG, but he is NOT a sure thing as a quality starting PG. Your calling this disrespect??, there are less than 20 quality starting point guards in the world. He may even join them, but for now it is a question that he will not a certainty. I am not relying solely on Bowen's playoff #s. But you look at his career regular season #s, last years #s AND the playoff result against Charlotte, or you just watch him play, and you get a completely different picture of a player than the "defensive stooper, dead eye open shooter, atheltic slasher" that ya'll make him out to be. Being a good defensive player and OK spot up shooter makes you a valuable bench player, but you need to do more to be a quality 3 in this league. The Spurs need a mid to late 90s Elliott in this role as Kirgo even suggested, and Bowen is no Elliott. Add it all up, you have 3 major questionmarks out of the 5 starting positions. The Lakers and Kings made only minor changes, clearly made improvement in their total roster, and in general having less frequent and much smaller questionmarks.
That's pretty funny, Scar, saying someone who calls Antonio Davis a "scrub" is "carrying the torch of objectivity". I guess it just underscores the anti-Spur bias around here. I just can't understand it. Mo Taylor is inferior to a lot of other teams' power forwards. But he happens to fit the Rockets pretty well. Does that make Mo a liability (this is before the injury, of course ). Are we playing fantasy ball here? I don't see your point. If someone isn't as good as his counterpart on the other team, that makes him a liability? Huh? And Divac isn't going to decline? Horry isn't going to decline? Heck, Webber is even going to decline--he can't possibly top his output from last year. Tim Duncan probably won't decline, does that count for anything? Apparently only Spurs players are going to decline. So I take it from your post that you think LA will be "obscenely hot" for all of next year? Do you think they're going to win 80 games? Let's look at the last teams to get "obscenely hot" in the playoffs--the '95 Rockets, and the '99 Spurs -- how did those teams do the following year? Well first of all, Steve Smith had a much better 1st round than DA did. How do you explain that? I don't see where Smith is being asked to do all that you say. All he has to do is stand out and wait for a pass. How hard is that? He's never been asked to do less in his entire career. Can you dispute that? And he's only 32. He's not that old. Not many teams "lay their sites on" a 4th option. Did teams often key in on Mo Taylor last year? AD doesn't have to do much either. AD played quality minutes in the playoffs, and produced. Scar, you consistently leave out the fact that Webber has been a playoff choker his entire career. He's been in the league now what, 9 years? He's played in a lot of playoff games. It doesn't matter how good your 3rd, 4th, or 5th option is, if your 1st option doesn't raise his game in the playoffs. That's a fact you just can't escape, and it's the reason the Kings can never be ranked ahead of the Spurs. Mike Bibby doesn't change that.
I don't know how people can just suddenly put Portland ahead of San Antonio. The Blazers chemistry is still a HUGE question mark because the biggest egoes that were on the team causing trouble are still there. And they STILL don't have a proven go-to guy. The Spurs have proven go-to guys with playoff and championship experience. And as old as Robinson is getting, so is Horry, and Divac, as mentioned, along with Pippen, and Sabonis, etc. I agree with Freak, though Webber had an excuse last year with the ankle injuries, he still hasn't had a huge playoffs. He just doesn't take over playoffs series like great players do. Why, I don't know, but he just doesn't. Portland has Rasheed Wallace who can take over a series, but after that who? Anderson isn't a dominant go-to guy. Stoudamire is a liability defensively, Pippen is a go-to guy offensively, and their chemistry is a mess. I think the hatred for the Spurs is clouding a lot of people's minds. As for Antonio Daniels he started many playoffs games. In fact, when Derek Anderson went down with an injury he went bonkers. He was the only guy not named Robinson or Duncan to have a good game against the Lakers. In fact Daniels was the main PG for the Spurs during their regular season conference championship team as they fazed out Avery Johnson.
