No, that's what you're putting in my mouth. I'm sorry you can't justify my argument in your head so that you have to make up things that I'm saying. This is now the 2nd time you've done that. Sorry, but we didn't go by feelings. It was a good decision based upon the facts and the precedents that were known at the time. Why is that so hard to grasp? I will say it for the zillionth time: it was just as plausible, and more so, that VY becomes one of the MANY 1st-round QB busts or ho-hums as it was he would become what he is. Lots of NFL people believed that, and if you demand that I must dig up proof just go look at the draft boards from back then. Only the Titans had Vince even in the top 5. That wouldn't make sense, but then again I didn't say that. If you looked up ex post facto a while ago, go back and look up "strawman". I remember reading it, and more than once. You want to disprove it so badly, knock yourself out. You're denying it; the burden of proof is on you. The "every single GM", in bold no less, is myself being guilty of hyperbole. But what you'll find is guys who had a high opinion of DC and nobody talking bad about him. Look, you're the one who wants to say that the professionals who run the Texans are idiots and were flying in the face of common sense and common knowledge, that DC was a known bust. I remember some guys--a lot of guys--speaking very highly of DC. All you guys have to offer is, "Every fan in H-town knew it!!!!!" If it was that stupid of a decision at the time, prove it. And, don't give me the ex post facto bs--they had to make a decision without the benefit of seeing DC perform in a better system with better coaches and a better o-line. And they made it--and I'm confident that 9 out of 10 NFL GMs would have made the same decision. If you don't think so, then *you* prove it.
I'm sorry also, cause I thought before the draft that Carr would be a loser and couldn't take the Texans to a winning record. The only NFL person I respect that thought Carr would be a solid NFL QB was Kubiak and that was just an error in his judgment. Forgiven. It was not reasonable because the team was coming off a 2-14 season, needed rebuilding and needing much improvement at what they themselves have told us is the most valuable position and the one in which they will build the team upon- QB. Guessing that DC would be able to be transformed by Kubiak was a big mistake then and still is and will prove to be as long as he is still our QB. I don't think it was a stupid guess, but it wasn't reasonable based upon the opportunity to draft VY. Passing VY because DC might be improving is equal to the Rockets passing Hakeem Olajuwon because their center at the time of the draft Ralph Sampson just won rookie of the year and was hyped as the face of the franchise. Thank you Rockets for seeing the light. Whoever thought VY looked like Michael Vick (who never could pass) must have subconscience race issues, because VY led the nation in passing and performed more like John Elway or Joe Montana in college than Vick.
BS. You tell me, with a straight face, that the O-Line and the defense were worse than QB. The team was a freaking disaster. People are enjoying the benefits of only ONE YEAR of a management team that knows how to have a successful draft and put guys in a position to succeed--many parts of the team are looking better, and now they're acting like QB was the only problem the Texans had last year. Man, that's just myopic. And, put that stupid race card away. Holy crap, that was stupid.
GO HOUSTON TEXANS!! Not a Titans, Bud Adams, or VY fan. I hope Mario Williams and Carr have career game.
I never said the O-Line or defense were worth a flip. The only player I would have had on a team was Andre Johnson. I thought they were sorry at every other position. So for me, I rebuild starting with QB especially with a very special one available that might not come available again for several years. The last two great prospects that have come along at QB were VY and P Manning. I rebuild starting at QB unless I have a good one. I also rebuild when my team is 2-14 and talent depleted, meaning I am 2-3 seasons from being competitive. The talent stunk to high heaven all over the team last year. And DC wasn't no where near the biggest problem. Just the biggest place to make an impact that would get the franchise back on track. I loved Kubiak's draft except for missing VY and I have alot of faith in Kubiak. He will right the ship in my opinion. But he made a mistake with David- all is forgiven, just don't do it again. As far as race- check out my post in D&D. I think there was and is a stereotype effect that is not deliberately held by teams, at least not on purpose, most don't even realize they carry the stereotype; but this really factored on the evaluation of VY.
All this is very plausible. I agreed at the time with how they proceeded--rather than the "start over beginning with QB" angle you suggest, they addressed the most horrifying areas first. I make it a point to avoid the D&D. And, I disagree with this--with everything in me. Warren, Dante, Donovan, and others have done a lot to do away with what was once a ridiculous misconception. My retort to you on this issue was just too terse and rude; thanks for taking the high road and not responding in kind.
Not to Defend Bud but I must admit. . his history with black QBs is impressive MOON - which he found out of no where [well to me at least] I was wondering at the time. . WARREN MOON??? WHO?? Moon was HOF McNair - I remember him at Alcorn . . . PHENOM and Now Vince - Nuff Said I don't think any team can claim such a great succession of QBs much less Black QBs I may hate bud for taking the Oilers. . but I respect him for helping the Black QBs come to prominence in this league Rocket River
Warren Moon was one of the most in-demand free agents in the history of the NFL (after his 5 grey cups). The Oilers made him the highest paid player in the NFL... they didn't find him out of nowhere (well, to me, at least).
The Huskies went 11-11 in Moon's first 2 seasons as a starter, but during his senior year, Moon led the Huskies to a 27-20 win over the favored University of Michigan Wolverines in the 1978 Rose Bowl and was named the game's Most Valuable Player on the strength of two short touchdown runs and a third quarter 28-yard touchdown pass to wide receiver Robert "Spider" Gaines.
1st I have to prefece I left Houston before the Texans came into being. I still follow Houston sports because of affection for the city and my time there, but this fact makes the Texans allegence weaker. I would be so bitter if I lived there, had season tics, etc, and they passed on VY, making it worse was him going to the arch enemy. The LAST (realistic) team I wanted VY to go was Tenn. Hou, NO, NYJ, Oak, AZ--all would have been preferrable. I still despise Bud Adams. But he is just 1 guy, and not the faces of the org. I like Voung, Fisher and the way the Titans play (Fisher's influence). I thought it would be hard to root for them, but it hasn't been once I saw them with VY in there. They give it all, they play better than their individual talent--what a team is all about. And yes we root for our individuals we are fans of. Had the Rockets not drafted Hakeem I am sure a bunch of people would have rooted for him so long as he wasn't playing against the Rockets. I routed for Clyde and Blazer's except against the Rockets. There are some Shard Lewis fans as well, though he is not in their league as a Houston amatuer sports legends. It wasn't VY, Clyde or Shard's fault the local teams didn't draft them. It was those teams oversight. No reason to hold it against the players. Maybe like with Clyde we will get a 2nd chance, doubtfull though. As for the game, a Texans win would not surprise me. Talentwise these teams are even. But the scene will get so ugly if VY walks over them. To a man I think the Texans know this and will circle the wagons. If they can stop the run (largely if you are fired up emotionally you can), the Titans will have trouble, VY has a ways to go in the passing game and the Titans have woefull WRs. But we will see, VY and the Titans may just stick it too them. And if so I will feel a little bad for Carr and the Texan players if they get booed out of the stadium, but the brass deserves every boo they get.
I don't remember this many people hoping the Texans would draft Vince during the offseason. Besides the UT fans, everyone else was hoping we would draft Bush. Now everyone is saying we made a mistake by not drafting Vince, but a lot of these same people would have made the same mistake if it would have been up to them. They would have drafted Bush, not Vince.
to be fair, there were a lot of Bush-supporters who immediately after the draft were saying, "i'd rather have VY."
If by "immediately after the draft" you mean after the titan's last 2 games, I'd agree with you. I'm just saying that a lot of people here claiming they knew all along that passing on Vince was a mistake aren't being totally honest. A lot of them just came to this conclusion in the last 2 weeks. 4 months ago, they would have passed Vince for Reggie.
I knew. I knew Carr sucked years ago and I knew we should have gotten VY even prior to the draft. And I have the posts in the archives here to back it up. And i'm sure alot of the other Carr bashers here do as well. What I find is funny is all the people posting in the Mario Williams draft day threads talking about how they wouldn't support the Texans after they blew the draft, and then a few months later they are all hyped up and cheering the Texans on. Screw the Texans. I cheer for them to lose, because they deserve it after the way they screwed things up. I was an Oilers fan through and through. The Texans had a chance to gain my allegiance and completely fumbled this last draft. I have no affinity for the Titans (I don't even think of them as being related to the Oilers), but I'll be rooting for them because I want to see the Texans lose.
I remember of fair number of non-UT fans who saw a lot of Vince Young who said hell yeah he should be taken #1. I think the main people who thought he would fail were anti-UT, were over thinking it (I’ll get to this later), or into sanctimonious self-promotion (lots of the draft geeks that get TV time and sell their products) The whole thing was kinda of weird. It went from Lee Corso ("A GM would have to be an idiot not to take that guy (VY) #1", "Best player coming out of college since Roger Staubach, maybe better") and guys like Herbstreet to SC Alums like Ronnie Lott to Marcus Allen (making comments like "basically, hell yes he is ready for the NFL, like right now", or admitting "best QB I have seen in some time") to a few weeks later to doubts that he would even be a decent NFL QB. It was because of a media circus around the draft and generating publicity and controversy that had nothing to game performance. A whole lot of proclaimed profootball experts and media just outsmarted themselves instead of realizing what they saw on the field, plus a few out there whose aims is just to generate controversy or selling their products. So a lot of guys, UT fans or not, realized the potential and the player in VY. The Titans staff wasn't fooled when a lot of folks were pushing for Leinart and Cutler for their pick. Give credit to the Titans for seeing the forest among the trees. It never should have been that complicated. One guy, and only one guy, made a field of tremendous athletes look ordinary and could do pretty much what he wanted throwing and running at the top of the college game. How do you overlook that? Ideology and groupthink (thinking what a pro style QB must conform to, factoring in an IQ test that guys like Marino, McNabb and McNair had already proved irrelevant to NFL quarterbacking) is all one can come up with. Neither is excusable when you are paid to know better.
