Sometimes you can't just look at stats for everything, just realize that Carr doensn't have it, he is not a winner, no matter what team he was on. 10 td and 8 int in 11 games, that is pathetic, the guy is in his 5th yr in the league and the offense has enough talent and has a good coach.
in his last 8 games (1/2 season equivalent) he's thrown 4 TD's and 6 INT's. inconsistent. mediocre at best.
but he just threw his 1st TD after 20 scoreless qtrs. Things are on the upswing, just hold on, give a little more time
I think that it's not unreasonable to expect more from Carr. After all, if anything he should have been re-energized this season with the arrival of Kubiak. Instead, he's playing like he's in the Twilight Zone and the rest of the team appears to have joined him there. No one can deny that this team is an NFL dog - that's what a 2-14 record means. No one can argue that there are glaring talent & personnel (and maybe even coaching) issues with this team. They are losing and they should be losing. But, and this is a question I pose to guys like Ric, is it too much to ask that they at least look respectable out there instead of continuing to embarrass the organization and the city? I submit that even with all the injuries and a 3-8 record (having squandered a good chance to be 5-6), they still should not continue going out there looking this bad. Carr is the lightning rod who gets most of the blame because he's the poster boy for the organization and rightly or wrongly, blame comes with the territory. Yes, that is not fair and, as Ric has pointed with numerous examples, it's not an accurate picture of what's really happening. But in a season where so much has gone wrong for the Texans, is it not unreasonable for me to look for some signs of improvement from the guy we expect to lead us out of this morass? And this doesn't apply just to David Carr, how about showing up and making a PLAY every now then eh, defense? There is no reason in hell why a meatball QB like J.P. Lossman should ever be able to pass himself into the NFL record books on your watch. As for David Carr, I admit that I have started to doubt his ability to be the man for the job because I think it's well past the time for David to stand up and lead. This is his team and he can't start winning until he BELIEVES he can win. That's all I'm looking for from him: attitude and confidence. Not magical powers that transform those around him into football playing SOBs and I certainly don't want him to start trying to channel VY or Tom Brady or Troy Aikman or Joe Montana. No, I just want him to be David Carr but I want to see a David Carr that is up to the challenge of turning this puppy around. And I'm willing to bet the farm that is exactly what Kubiak is looking for as well.
I think he is more in the mold of passer-scrambler-runners like McNabb, Steve Young, Culpepper, and McNair than say Cunningham or Vick (runner-passers), but each to his own. There are a number of guys who have had multiple seasons with 500+ yards rushing along with 3000+ plus passing. I believe they are McNabb, Steve Young, Culpepper, McNair, and Cunningham, and all had pretty reasonably long careers. There are lots of other dominant "scrambling" QBs who were not afraid to tuck and run fairly often, enough to accumulate over 300 yards rushing seasons, and who had extremely long careers--Elway, Bradshaw, Staubach, and Tarkington come to mind. So the idea of a passer-scrambler-thrower QB (what I think VY is) is nothing new to the NFL. I see VY squarely fitting into this mold. I don't think he will ever approach a "runner-passer" mold of QB like Vick or Cunningham (both closed in on 1000 yards rushing as QBs, Vick will get there this season barring injury) because VY prefers to throw, and has better touch and timing with his passes than Vick or RC. IMO Young will be a regular 500+ rusher/3000+ passer by next year or the next, he will never rival Vick or Cunningham's rushing yards, and shouldn't try to. I will say this, in watching a fair amount of VY, he does have this habit of his medium to deep outs sinking real low. This is a part of his game that bugs me. That said this isn't too bad of habit, usually worst case is an incompletion if his guy can't get there, but it doesn't make his WRs job easy on these and it does leave potential positive plays on the field. Certainly not as bad of a habit as a fluttering or sailing such throws that can lead to pick 6s pretty easily, but I'd like to see these throws as crisper, and wonder if a mechanical/arm adjustment is needed. But Tenn and VY can visit that next offseason--you wouldn't monkey with throwing motion midseason.
mcnabb's missed 20 games the past five years. young's career was cut short by multiple concussions. culpepper's missed 21 games the past two years and his career may be done (the guy's not even 30 yet). mcnair hasn't missed as many games as the aforementioned, but he's played through a lot of pain and been hampered by injuries for years and years. cunningham, of course, is who i think he'll most resemble, but even his career was derailed by injury. during the final five years of his career with philadelphia (before sitting out an entire season in 1996) when cunningham was at his peak, he missed 39 games. QBs who run extensively in the NFL have a very long history of shortened careers, multiple injuries and/or scores of missed games.
Is this not true of about any long time NFL player who isn't a kicker or special teamer? Stand still QBs get knocked out and careers cut short too. Look at Palmer last year, Aikmen had more of a concussion reduced career than Young, Broadway Joe (standstill) had a career more hampered by injury than Staubach, Tarkenton, Bradshaw, etc. It look slike Fran Tarkenton in fact lasted the longest of Hall of Fame QBs, and he was known for scrambling and running around. Though defenders in general were not as big and fast then and may have help Fran survive longer, McNair and Brunell (who ran for over 400 yards earlier in his career and was much like a poor mans Steve Young) are two of the current starting QBs (along with Farve and Brad Johnson) with 12+ years of experience. So how much being a scrambler and runner in additition to just being an NFL QB adds injury risk I am not too sure. I would think personal prepartion/ conditioning, personal luck (strong bones, limber frame, thick brain sheeth, whatever) and other luck (good oline, just never taking those big hits) are much bigger factors than a QB's style of play. Nothing to suspect VY is any more injury prone than any other young QB.
Bottom line Ric. If you could have either Carr or Young right now, who would you take? Somebody should post a poll on that one.
Of course, that's not the bottom line. Right now, I'd personally rather have Carr and Williams rather than Young by himself.
Of course they cost twice in cap space as VY does too. It would depend on what you could get had you traded Carr. For instance last year if you got a late 1st for Carr you could have VY + RB (Addai, Marouney, D. Williams) for Carr + MW at a cheaper salary tag, or a late 2nd for Carr you still could get a quality RB (Jones-Drew, LenDale White). I'd probably take VY plus any of those 5 1st or 2nd round RBs over MW and Carr. So again, it all would all depend on what you could have got with Carr.
sure; football's a violent sport. but you just listed every prominent running/passing QB of the past two decades... and every single one of them had their careers hampered, shortened or ended because of injuries. there wasn't a single exception. all things being equal, probably young, though i admittedly don't think he's as special as a lot here seem to think. obviously, young's a more dynamic QB than carr. but i also think the speed and ferocity of the nfl will negate some, if not more of that dynamic. but that wasn't the choice the texans had to make and it doesn't mean carr's worthless. in a way, i'd love for carr to be with the bears right now, see if what we think is true - that he could thrive with a strong supporting cast. he may never have that opportunity here in houston unless they have another '06-like offseason, which is asking a lot. so… no one in this forum wants him, but less knowledgeable GMs all over football would be lining up to throw premium draft choices at the texans to acquire carr, huh....?
Funny how everyone discounts the guy we DID pick. We should start another poll. If you could have either Mario Williams or Jason Babin right now, who would you take?
If I were a GM with a decent team but without a youngish quality QB I would certainley have considered a late 1st or 2nd round pick for Carr. I am a Cowboys fan as well, I thought given up the 20 pick (went for Carpenter) for Carr was a good idea. That 20 pick could have translated to Marouney, Addai or D Williams to the Texans, all outstanding RB workhorse prospects in my book. Even if Carr only got a 2nd, that could have fetched Mo Jones-Drew, and excellent complimentry/utility back and returner. Of course with Romo's emergence (same age as Carr) no need for this move for the Boys in retrospect. But there are other good teams with aging or unproducing QBs that might consider a late 1st or late 2nd. If Rex kills Chicago in the playoffs, very possible, I would consider Carr if I were them. Minny needs a QB too, maybe the Ravens (McNair is 34 in Feb). But all this is moot because VY isn't in this draft. I'd probably stick with Carr for now, maybe add some late flyers and hope they push him, but I certainly would not sell out the farm (multiple 1s) to move up for Brady Quinn and hope he is better.
isn't this EXACTLY what the carr-...sympathizers have been preaching from day one? given a better supporting cast, he'll be just fine? but you'd rather trade him, still not have a decent supporting cast and start all over at QB? that makes no sense. if you think he can thrive with talent, why not work instead to provide him that talent?
Great question. I'm glad you asked. There are some QB's who contribute more to winning games. Others are just asked to avoid mistake...to be nothing more than game managers. Trent Dilfer is Exhibit "A" in my view, of those sorts of QB's. He is a fungible commodity. You don't pay guys like that lots of money or make big commitments to them. If I remember right, Dilfer was not the starting QB the very next season after having just won a Super Bowl. By not commanding lots of money or big deals, you are able to spend money elsewhere. And your expectation level is entirely different. The Texans, as I understand it, are treating Carr as a franchise player. More is expected of him than merely being a game manager...more than just not throwing TD's, but not throwing INT's, either. If there is a more talented QB who out there who can contribute more directly to wins, I would be all for that. Obviously. I'm not suggesting Sage is that guy. Or Lucy Van Pelt, either. And the frustration comes from the perception that you let a game manager keep you from a difference maker...maybe 3 times.
And you have come to the place where I now find myself. Part of me agrees with the getting Carr a decent supporting cast. The major problem with this approach is that they could waste 2-3 years doing this only to find themselves having to replace Carr because he simply didn't work out and those lost years can never be made up. But a part of me also feels that, in the long run, the Texans would be better off by truly starting over from scratch - and that includes replacing the quarterback now. Having worked with another damaged QB in Jake Plummer, I'm sure that Kubiak sincerely believes in his ability to both heal and mold Carr into a championship QB. But I feel that the odds of this ever happening are against him and I have come to believe that in the end, the David Carr project will end up like the Jake Plummer project. As a result, I remain deeply conflicted on what to do about David Carr. Man! Whoever thought that being a Texans' fan would lead to schizophrenia?
In a word, timing. Carr is what 27. The Texans need lot of pieces on both sides of the ball. Further, VY was available, who I think has even more upside and is younger, which fits in line with a 2-3 year target date for the Texans to have the supporting cast. In short I thought the timing was right for the Cowboys (who had most all pieces but a good QB) and the Texans (3 years away regardless who the starting QB is, so go with who you think will be better and have more game left in like 2008-9). Now I wouldn't have taken Leinart, I wouldn't have taken Cutler. I wouldn't sell the farm for Quinn at this point (cost you multiple 1sts if he grades out like we think, which gets in the way of adding future pieces even if he does become great). But having the opp to pickup the 23 year old VY with your own pick and maybe something extra (Carr trade taker) while keeping salary down, yeah I would have done that. I have said from the day VY declared that is what I would have done if I were the Texans.
