Is Shane Battier one of the best role players ever?

LAst year they had a ton of injuries. The year before with basically the same team (except healthier) they were a top defensive team. Even when Cat and Stevie were here they were near the top in most defensive categories.

 

All this is true but not worth a first rounder

 

Wow, our starters allowed less points per 100 possessions than the backups. Yeah I haven't heard that one before.

It's JVG's defensive preaching and Yao who anchors our D. Not Shane Battier.

 

I like him,very good

 

What do you mean that his impact on defense is only marginal? I don't think that's true. We are a far better defensive team with Battier on the court this year than we were last season. Battier gives the team 38 minutes of strong defense and competent, mistake-free offense. And he rarely gets injured. He may seems invisible on a game to game basis, but over the course of a season the aggregate impact of having such a player is very significant.

If I had to guess, I think having Battier versus Sefalosha+Swift gives us at least 5 more wins.

 

Definately one of the best. I simply love his plays, taking a couple of charges from time to time, taking a few 3 pointers, playing great D, taking fouls for Yao, getting a few steals, fighting for the boards, etc. I really think he is the perfect fit for the team to complement Yao & T-Mac. If we can strengthen even further at the pf position, we can go all the way.

 

But look at

Yao:

On: 103.1
Off: 100.1

McGrady:
On: 102.4
Off: 101.7

Team D was actually statistially slightly better with these two resting. It's not just a starter/bench player deal.

The same applies to the starters in Memphis last season. Somehow, he had a larger impact on the defensive stats than other starters. Neither Gasol nor Eddie Jones, for example had a large positive impact on the opposing points scored per 100 posession.

Calling this a simple difference between starter and bench players is contrary to the evidence over the last couple of years.

 

How valid can those defensive stats on Battier be if the same stats say the Rockets are a better defensive team with Yao on the bench?

 

I agree. Shane more offense is needed. Please provide!!!

 

that's right we got shane to improve team d and he has played well in that aspect. however we also thought he would be very efficient on offense. he has not done that. he has hurt our offensive game by putting up the low %'s. his opponents production from the 82games.com stats is greater than his own.

we didn't trade a first rounder and rotation player for battier to be this weak on offense. he needs to be above 50% FG and 40% 3pt.

 

No doubt. With his smooth jumper and his moves in the post, he should help out a little more with his scoring. I haven't been overly impressed with his defense. He puts a lot of effort out on that side of the ball, but he gets beat too much to be called a true stopper.

Overall I think he's an okay player, but I was expecting a lock down defender who could contribute 12 points consistantly.

 

Every stat needs to be interpreted in its context.

Battier rotates in and out of multiple spots, so his substitute when he's "off the court" could be Head, Snyder, Howard, etc. The numbers have shown that the Rockets are better with Battier in there generally than with whoever else replaces him.

Typically when Yao sits, Mutombo is in for him. Hate on him all you want, Mutombo still plays very good D, at least on par with Yao most nights. For one thing, he doesn't have to worry about foul trouble like Yao does since he's only needed for 10 minutes a game.

This does not show Yao is terrible, it's just that the Rockets haven't lost much defensively with Mutombo, who is still pretty good.

On the other hand, the numbers does show that whoever replaces Battier, when he's off the court, nobody on the team quite steps into his shoes.

 

Dude get real. 50% FG and 40% 3pt. Show me one forward who has that stat ?

I'll give you a hint, Dirk Nowitz is close , but not @ 40% 3pt. Were you expecting a Dirk in the Gay trade

 

Mutombo is a better defensive player than Yao, even at 40 something.

 

I think I'm starting to see why Jerry West was willing to give up Battier. You like the guy because he does all dirty work, but it just seems to me this guy could do more than what he's giving.

 

Rockets are about equal with him on or off the court on offense so far. Seems like he's not been much of an offensive upgrade over his replacement, probably due to his shooting slump. It's not like his shooting slump is really dragging down the rest of the team, even if we hope-- and can probably anticipate-- him snapping out of the slump.

As for the "opponent production," for a guy like Battier it's not really all that important. First, he's often guarding someone other than his "opponent". 82games.com shows he played exclusively at SF and PF, I know for a fact that he's primparly guarded SG on some nights.

Also Battier is really not a shut down 1-on-1 guy, he's a roamer on D, a free safety rather than a cornerback. For example, he stopped layup/dunk attempts by Eddy Curry and David Lee several times in the Garden. Didn't show up on his opponent production stats, but showed up on the team defensive stat when he was on the court.

 

...like they said...

Dennis Rodman.

 

ummm you did see what his %'s were like last year, right? he was at 48.8% FG, 39.4% 3pt and 82.6% FT. yes I was expecting slight improvement with him being around yao and tmac.

I believe he will turn around as chemistry develops so I am not acting like he won't get better. I feel like if we start getting that battier then we will really be able to punish teams on offense.

 

For those who think Battier has little to no impact on this team, just look at the On/Off numbers at 82games.com.

Identify all the Rockets players where the team outscores the opponent with them on the court, but are outscored by the opponent with them off the court:

Code:

[B]          On        Off     [/B] 
Yao       +4.4      +4.1
McGrady   +4.6      +3.4
[B][COLOR=Blue]Battier   +6.3      -2.3[/COLOR][/B]
Alston    +4.5      +3.8
[B][COLOR=Blue]Hayes     +19.7     -1.7[/COLOR][/B]
Head      +4.1      +4.5
Snyder    -4.7      +9.4
Howard    -5.8      +9.0
Padgett   +4.8      +4.2

I think these numbers, though it's early, indicate that Battier and Hayes are bringing strong contributions to the team, and they aren't simply riding the coattails of Yao and McGrady in the starting lineup. We've been at out best with Battier and Hayes on the court, and we've been at our worst with them off the court.

 

That's all nice and fine. But why did you have to choose Antoine Walker, a guy who basically didn't really fit any where and definitely didn't think of himself as a role player. As I've said, I don't consider getting 14/8 within the flow of the offense all the difficult for a supposed "good" role player.

How many shots do you need to take to get 14/8? Sure ain't 30. If it takes a guy 30 shots to consistently get 14/8, chances are, he won't be on the team very soon.

Besides, given how often Rafer Alston (whom I still cringes he looks at the basket) shoots, this team has MORE THAN ENOUGH shots to go around.

Looks good on paper, unfortunately reality is a little different.

People have done event studies for ages but in the modern day, event studies may as well be dead. The problem? You can't independently test such events to verify your results.

The same case applies here. You are trying to do an event study on the impact of when Battier plays vs. when he does not play. Yet you cannot fundamentally separate this event from other related factors.

For example, Battier is a starter. Could it be conceivable that when he rests, the other team is playing its B team as well, which shoots a lower %? Also, could it also be conceivable that fatigue kicked in for the other team at the same time when Battier needs a rest? Both sounds logical to me.

But instead, you drew a conclusion without controlling the other variables, which unfortunately, makes your findings generally less than desired.