I saw this post in the thread about Luther Head and thought it was interesting. The poster is only a rookie so I'm helping him out by starting a thread.
You exert less energy playing defense in college and have plenty of young, fresh legs to run a motion offense. While I think Luther, Snyder, Hayes and VSpan can do a great job moving off the ball, they will have to do so instinctively for the time being since JVG is more concerned about clearing out and giving Yao space to work with. It takes alot of work and knowledge to design even the most watered down type of Princeton offense; JVG doesn't have the ability to do it.
Again, we see pretty good results with our 'spacing' offense when our perimeter shooters are knocking down their shots. This has always been a more effective NBA offense due to the depth of the three-point line compared to college.
Thanks for posting it for him Shishir. I was going to post it for him tonight when I got back home, but you were a step ahead of me. He makes excellent points and I have been advocating motion offense for years. Motion offense will keep defense honest and take a whole lot of pressure off of Yao and Tmac for the entire game. It will especially help during end game situations when our offense becomes too predictable as mentioned by Phil Jackson. Unfortunately Gundy is just not smart enough to implement such an offense.
We also have plenty of players who would be smart enough to run a motion offence (T-Mac, Yao, Battier, and possibly Rafer and VSpan). An IQ mismatch is as real as any other kind of mismatch, and a motion offence would take maximum advantage of this.
I am a fan! Have been since 1990! Does not mean I cant lay down some criticisms. Gundy is a workaholic and I would say probably the HARDEST working coach in the NBA. That does not automatically make him smart though. Do you see Gundy coming coming up with motion offense anytime soon? I dont! If he does I will declare him the most versatile coach in the NBA! Better yet, if he does, with the defense and that kind of offense, Rockets will go on to win multiple championships!
Its really difficult to replicate a motion offense in the NBA. Only one team really had one in recent years (Sacramento) and now that Adelman got the boot, that's gone too. The biggest barrier to the motion offense, IMO, is basketball IQ. It doesn't just involve constantly moving and cutting, but continuous motion of the ball. People need to read the cuts properly and find the backdoor cuts, and catch people off of screens properly. It requires excellent passing ability from all 5 players. Most teams have 1 or 2 players on the court that just don't cut it and are mainly there to rebound or are just pure scorers. Also, it just takes time to teach that type of game. People who are moving need to know how to move, where to move, how to read defenses and figure out where to go, etc.. Also, they need to learn where to pass and distribute. But you're absolutely right, at times, this team has the makeup for a motion offense. The great thing about our superstars is that they both are great passers. Sacramento did so well because guys like Chris Webber, Vlade Divac, and Mike Bibby were all phenomenal at moving the ball around and recognizing where to throw it. As long as people were cutting and moving properly, the ball ended up in the right spot. With smart guys like Yao, McGrady, Battier, Alston, etc.. we could definitely do that but it takes time and a solid commitment to that type of game. I would love to see it but its just really hard to teach and I don't know if Van Gundy would have the time and whether the players would pick up on it fast enough.
Could the proponents of motion offense please define what exactly "motion offense" means and list teams who uses it? IIRC, Washington runs a version of the SAC offense (Eddie Jordan having been an Adelman assistant). Doc Rivers also allegedly runs a motion offense-- or at least he did in Orlando. Are these the kind of offense you guys are talking about?
Utah Jazz has had motion offense ever since Sloan was their head coach. Their motion offense is the main reason that team is doing so well this year. PJ/Tex Winter's triangle offense also employs cutting and moving.
I'm not sure anymore either. In college, those offenses are pretty distinct. Watch a team like Georgetown or West Virginia and they run variants of the motion offense. Georgetown pretty much runs a straight princeton offense while west virginia runs a version that focuses more on 3 point shooting and occasional backdoor cuts. In the NBA, teams employ the basic tenants and concepts of the original princeton offense but they're really watered down. I always remembered Sacramento as being the closest thing I saw to one but I guess there are others. So who knows? Either way, I do agree we actually the personel (depending on who's on the floor) to run plays that employ some concepts of the motion offense.
In motion offense, its not just 1 or 2 specific people cutting/moving to basket. If that were the case, every team would be said to be playing motion offense. It has to do with most or all of the players in constant motion. The players keep moving and balls keep moving. The defense is always on its heals and as soon as there is an opening, BAM! Sacramento, as mentioned earlier, was excellent at it. So is Utah Jazz. In 1997, Jazz's motion offense gave Rockets fits in playoffs. They could never solve it that year and eventually lost. If you notice the Rockets offense, they will have at least 2 perimieter players just camping out at front or sides waiting for a kickout. Rockets offense is more of an isolation offense. Isolation of Yao or Tmac, or pick and roll. In either case, it is very predictable and gives defenses better preparation. This becomes critical in playoffs.
I maybe in the minority here but I don't think you can run a motion offense when you're feeding the ball into the post so much like we are doing, also Yao ain't the most fleet footed around to be running around doing motion offense. Also, you have to have a special PG who is going to dictate where the ball is going ala Nash/Stockton type, we don't have that special PG. I'm guessing all this motion offense hullabaloo is coming from is the same eye sore I see when I watch the Rox play trying to feed the ball to Yao, the 3 other players standing around while the fourth is trying to do the post entry pass to Yao. In fact even when we aren't feeding the ball to Yao, there's still alot of standing around.
We can't have a full-fledged motion offense in houston. You're point about Yao is well taken and is true. However, we're not running a princeton offense here. Get the ball to Yao, and have people cut and move around. Yao's proven he can find people who cut to the basket or get free from their defender for a jump shot. Like I said earlier, we can run set motion offense plays depending on what players are on the floor. You can dump it into Yao and find cutters or kick it out to McGrady, have him penetrate and dish it out. Sacramento would put CWebb or Vlade in the post and just run it through them at times from the post so Yao shouldn't be too much of a barrier. Also, offenses like the triange which utliize motion concepts require a post player to anchor the offense and ball movement The idea is to switch it up and get away from an exclusive isolation offense to create a little more unpredictability.
Not sure if anybody notices, but JVG runs the same plays for Luther as he does for Tmac. I see every other play when Luther is in there, doing the double screen play from the left to right side of the court or the other way around. Its successful whenever he makes, but even when is off, they still run it without hesitation. I love how Head has asserted himself as an elite 6th man off the bench. I always get compliments when I wear my Luther swingman jersey at the games.
Actually, Yao does plenty of running on O, about as much as Vlade used to with the Kings. (Of course, Vlade was like 35 years old by then, but he was still effective.) Most of the time, we could use him in the low post as you suggest; but once in a while, instead of all those high pick & rolls, he could receive the ball in the high post and find a cutter from there, as Bill Walton used to do so successfully. As you say, the idea is to keep the defence guessing.
Thanks Sishir Chang for making my idea a thread and quoting me, and Zboy for thinking about making my post a thread. Granted I've never really played organized 5 on 5 basketball, I'd like to think NBA players (especially our veteran players) have enough basketball IQ to read and find cuts as well as catch people off screens properly. I know I'm making this sound much easier than reality, but as far as players knowing where to move and reading defenses, don't worry about that. JUST MOVE! (and don't run into people... and make sure you don't run into a ginobili!) As long as the defense is forced to pay attention to the other players, there's no such thing as wasted movement. Like geeimsobored said, a motion offense requires great passing ability, and I feel T-Mac and Yao are great passers. I don't care that Head can't pass or Hayes can only rebound or etc. I should have clarified this earlier. My idea of the motion offense strictly pertains to when T-Mac or Yao has the ball. I don't want to see our 2 stars (especially Yao, who has a problem with stamina as it is) running aimlessly when Head has the ball. So in that way, I guess it's not a full-fledged motion offense. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but the whole reason why I want a motion offense in the first place is to isolate Yao and T-Mac! If Yao is within 10 feet of the basket and only one man is guarding him, I have confidence in him scoring. Make or miss, that is a quality possession. Similarly, if T-Mac is within 25 feet of the basket and only one man is guarding him, I feel his decision-making will lead to something good. The problem is, right now the other teams are double teaming both of our stars, and our other players are standing around like they're stuck in cement. If they can just cut to the basket for easy layups/dunks or get open for any jumpshot (and make them), the defense is forced into a severe dilemma. Actually I think this system will help Yao more than anybody. Less double teams on Yao translate to less turnovers, easier shots, higher FG%, and more assists. I get disappointed when people call Yao's passing ability overrated. It's anything but overrated -- it's a dormant skill that can be awakened by the appropriate system. Eh, don't worry about what exactly a motion offense is. Heck, I don't even know what it really is. I just remember the college basketball analysts always mentioning the phrase "motion offense" every time they talked about that Illinois team with Luther Head and Deron Williams. Like I said above, we're not really operating a motion offense anyway, because I don't want our two stars (whoever has the ball) to be involved in the actual motion. Those dreams of Hayes and Battier (also Snyder and when Ryan Bowen was here) cutting to the basket for easy lay-ins are exactly what I want to see on a consistent basis! Of course I don't expect everyone to agree here. Maybe our players really do lack the b-ball IQ. Maybe they don't have the stamina. Maybe this whole idea could blow up in my face. But I'd really like to give this "motion offense" thing a try considering the youth and athleticism we have this year. All I know is that right now, JVG is running a "stagnant offense", and it is: A.) Terribly inefficient at utilizing the abilities of the other three role players on the court. B.) Leading to double teams on T-Mac and Yao, which neutralize them from our offense and increases turnovers and bad possessions, when then lead to opponent fast breaks opportunities ---> blown 4th quarter leads. How many times has it felt like we have absolutely no idea what we're doing out there? C.) Can become really ugly to watch. Meanwhile, a "motion offense" with our team: A.) Uses the full potential of our role players B.) Prevents double teams on our stars and gives them isolation, which increases their FG% and decreases their turnovers. C.) Looks beautiful when the players are executing. As a basketball fan, would you rather see players standing around the perimeter waiting to react to events, or see players causing chaos of their own by moving off the ball? In other words, would you rather see a defense getting attacked by slugs or a swarm of bees? Try it JVG.
Agreed 100%. The best thing about motion is the unpredictability. Plus that you can add players elements to it(like their innovation and thought of the moment), and they can often do things as fit best, under the current pressure situations. It's so much more difficult in static teams, were you have to rely a lot more in outside shots so you "open" defenses through them.
