Hottoddie/Oeil of Olay: I missed it while skimming the thread earlier, but let me just chime in to say that a de facto Sura/Marc Jackson for Williams/Moochie deal would be very appealing to the Warriors, IMO, and at least plausible for the Rockets. On the GS side, it would give them flexibility to sign FAs or their own cheap young players (Porter/V. Cummings/Arenas) over the next 3 years while staying below the luxury tax ceiling and without giving up any of their current core players. (In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Moochie was the FA they signed, which is why I included him in the de facto trade equation.) Sura's contract is unwieldy, but looking at the Rockets' salary commitments they won't have enough cap room to do anything useful the next 3 years anyway (might as well use their exceptions), and Sura and Rice's contracts both expire before a Griffin extension would begin. At SG (but capable of swinging to SF in 3-guard lineups), Sura would fill a roster hole in Houston rather than being part of a logjam in Oakland. And since he'd be coming over for Williams, it's not like the Rockets would lose that much defensively. There is a possible luxury-tax risk for Houston in '03-'04, though, depending on what happens to Collier, Langhi, and KT ... and it certainly would be understandable if chemistry considerations kept CD & Rudy T. from pulling the trigger. Also: Just to clarify something (and I think NugzFan can confirm this), Denver did NOT give up one of their own draft picks for Cook. Instead, Orlando owed Denver a future pick because of a previous trade, and the draft-day deal was Issel essentially saying, "Hey, we'll take Cook instead of what you owe us" -- i.e., a Cook in the hand is worth a #23 pick (and guaranteed 3-year contract) in the bush. The NY Daily News misreported this the day after the draft, and the misperception has persisted. In addition, I don't think the signing of AJ conflicts with Cook's presence at all. Van Exel has had a chronic knee condition since his Lakers days, so a solid backup is important -- particularly if Denver hopes to make the playoffs this year, which I'd imagine Issel is under some pressure to do. And I doubt anyone (perhaps including even Cook and his agent) believes Omar is ready to play significant nightly minutes on a playoff-aspiring NBA team. So AJ is signed for a short-term deal to show Omar the ropes, and the transition occurs as Cook shows he's ready for it. Yeah, the reported non-guarantee is a bit fishy, but that's the only element that doesn't make total sense in the context of a Nuggets plan to develop Cook over 3-4 years.
Swopa, Unfortunately, GS can't do any kind of S&T with Jackson, because they only have the mid-level exception available & the CBA won't allow a player to be signed with it & then traded. Otherwise, I could dream up a trade scenario. If the deal that I speculated earlier were to happen, then GS would have to compete against the other teams for Moochie's services on the FA market. Don't take offense, but I doubt that Moochie would go to GS outright, unless they offered him the full $4.5 mill exception or at least quite a bit more than any other team. Golden State has a promising young team, but they aren't quite ready for prime time. As OP has stated, it doesn't sound like the Rockets are going to do any more multi-player trades this year. However, they have surprised us before.
Swopa Couple of things .... 1. I know this is a moot point at best but - the fact is Issel had a first round commitment from the Magic that he used to buy Cook. Anyway you look at it a first rounder was used to get him ... ergo he was considered worth first round value. To play devils advocate even more ... let me say that if the deal had not gone down, would Denver have been able to command (demand?) first rounder in the furure? .... Answer: yes. So I think we can arguably call cook traded in exchange for a first rounder from the Magic. But ...well, moot point. 2. In the Denver roster we have at the one guard - (1)Avery Johnson,(2) Van Exel, (3)Voshon Lenard, and (4)Pack playing the one and two. Then they add (5) Cook. You see my problem with this. I think ideally it was thought he could squeeze between a couple of guys ... but things happened and now they don't have a spot for him. Even if Pack slides over to the two, he (RP) has to grab minutes from Abdul-Wahad, Cheaney, and even Posey who likes his swing minutes. Five point guards and 3, possibly 4 (Bowen is a swingman too) at the off guard. Seems crowded. I think Cook, whether they want him as "development material" or not is odd man out. I know they can free up some "two" minutes by unloading Abdul-Wahad, and they have been trying ..... but then that spot would go to Pack and we still have four PG's. What do they do? Hope Nick gets a season long injury? Anyway, thanks as always for your input and insightful view. Hottoddie 1. The Sura/Jackson deal for Walt/Moochie can still be done. Sura and Walt offset. GSW couldd remove any barriers to the Rockets signing Jackson outright (no matching offer,etc...) and the Mooch signs as a Free Agent in GSW. It would require agreements all around and that would be the kicker. 2. Moochie is the only guy I could see upset over the whole thing. But he is a pro and at some point he has told his agent to "get me the best possible deal". This may be it. The other thing is - they could offset some other things by adding one filler. We still have Langhi languishing on the fringe there ... they still have ... hell pick a number .... languishing on their fringe. Either or both teams could make it happen if they really wanted. 3. Frankly, I don't think the Rockets would ... but this Moochie business has got to be getting a little upsetting .... I know for a fact that Les is not ready to hand over $2M- $2.5M to Mooch in a three or four year deal. I think they may been more inclined earlier, but to be a Fegan client in Houston these days is not a very optimistic outlook! Mooch will get a drop dead offer very,very soon .... and he better know he is playing with the big boys then .... they are ready to shoot it out in the streets ....\ Cheers.
OP, Is there a time frame for this to happen? Do you have any insight as to whether or not Moochie will accept the ultimatum or is his agent in total control?
Okay, thanks Bob .... I thought he played the one and two in Florida. Swopa: My argument is diminished a bit by Bob's post, but I still hold that Denver is over staffed in guards and do not need or want Omar's services.
On principle, I refuse to learn the CBA. I was in favor of a hard cap with none of these silly exceptions and trade limitations. However.... As I understand it, GS can sign him for 3 years at a 20% raise and then trade him as they would any other player. However, that amount would be too low to trade him for Walt, since they are over the cap. I assume this is why someone mentioned Mookie Blaylock, since including him would make the numbers line up better. But then the numbers would put us over the cap, so it wouldn't work unless we did the same to Moochie (with his approval ... ha!) or just renounced him. So if we don't see a Mooch signing soon and all of a sudden head he has been renounced, we'll know something is up. BTW this is not to say I endorse this trade. I am afraid Mook would be worse for our chemistry that Rice. However, at 34 he's not over the hill, and he was an elite guard a few years ago. Would he be content to end his career backing up Francis and Mobley, grabbing maybe 20-25 mpg? I don't know, but if so, I'd say OK. He could easily step in as a starter for us in an emergency, and his savvy would help us win a few close games in a playoff race. P.S. "Hot to Die," I am worried about you. If things start to look too bleak, call a support group. You're not alone, man.
It's diminished even more by the fact that Pack is a free agent and the Nuggets have shown zero interest in bringing him back. Hottoddie: To confirm what Oeilpere said, the actual trade would be Sura for Williams. As a consideration of the trade, GS would allow the Rockets to make an unmatched offer to Marc Jackson. And with their luxury-tax outlook improved and their $4.5M exception still available, they might then pursue a free agent, perhaps Moochie (subject to the whims of Mr. Norris and the rest of the FA marketplace).
" ... It's diminished even more by the fact that Pack is a free agent and the Nuggets have shown zero interest in bringing him back. " **** .... I hate losing an argument due to my opponents ability to twist the hypothetical into facts .... hate it, I tell you ... just hate it !!!!!!!!!!!!
OP How about Packman to fill the Moochie void? He has the abilitity to slide 1-2 and can score and pass. IMHO, he could fill a bigger role than the Mooch. Could we afford him?
Swopa-So in a realGM mode, you would trade Sura and let Jackson walk to Houston for Walt+the ability to pursue a free agent? There'd be some interesting things if it came to pass as Sura/Jackson "rights" for Walt/Moochie or other rights. Moochie hit that big game winner against GS, didn't he? Maybe GS has the same no VCR rule. Sura was also angry at the Rockets for the little Eminem free throw incident. I'd definitely do a Walt for Sura with the implications of adding Jackson, and losing Moochie. Sura can play a little backup 1, but gives us a legit backup 2, which we could also use. Jackson gives us the depth at the PF/C to possibly trade KT for a backup PG, if we didn't look to pull one out of the scrap heap. Out of curiousity, would you throw KT and Teego from each side into the trade, if you knew you were going to sign Moochie making the whole hypothetical "deal" Sura/Teego/(Jackson) for Walt/KT/(Moochie). That would really fill out our depth chart. Jackson/Cato/Collier Taylor/Griffin Rice/Morris/Langhi Mobley/Sura Francis/Commings
I like Mooch, but Mooch and Walt for Jackson and Sura is tempting. It might be better then Walt for Jahidi White and re-signing Mooch because it would be cheaper, but I like the shot-blocking of White. But I would take a platoon of Jackson and Cato, and an experienced back-up 2-guard if Moochie doesn't re-sign!
Unfortunately, GS is loaded with big men. If, by some miracle this deal were to come to fruition, I'd then turn around & try to send Cato to Chicago in order to get Miller. Apparently Jaren Jackson has been released by the Spurs. Would you pick him up real cheap as a backup SG? http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=210&xlc=282431&xld=210 Express-News: Spurs Spurs waive veteran shooting guard By Glenn Rogers San Antonio Express-News Web Posted : 08/29/2001 Jaren Jackson will be remembered for his 3-point barrage that helped the Spurs sweep the Lakers en route to the NBA championship in 1999. On Wednesday, the Spurs said so long to the veteran guard, waiving him with one year left on his contract. "This is what he wanted," Spurs coach and general manager Gregg Popovich said. "Obviously we have made a lot of changes this year, and we actually are very full at that spot. He would have had a tough time finding playing time there. "This way, he has a chance to get on another team. For a few weeks when the Spurs needed him most, Jackson was a virtual star. "We will always be tremendously appreciative of the efforts he provided us in our championship year. He was a vital part of that team," Popovich said. "He had a great season, was wonderful in the playoffs, and really clobbered Los Angeles during that series." The Lakers never knew what hit them. They left San Antonio down 2-0 in the 1999 Western Conference Semifinals but reasonably confident they could rebound at the Great Western Forum. They were worried about Tim Duncan and David Robinson, about Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson. They didn't allow for a Jackson air raid. But it came. Jackson had ruined many a team through the 1998-99 campaign, the finest of a career that had run through eight NBA and four CBA teams. He capped it beautifully with his postseason rampage, greeting Lakers fans with a 22-point outburst on the Forum floor in Game 3. He obliterated Los Angeles with another 20 points in Game 4, helping the Spurs complete the sweep by nailing six of 11 3-pointers. He averaged 12.3 points through the four games against Los Angeles, fourth-best among the Spurs. Jackson continued his run against Portland in the conference finals and the Knicks in the NBA Finals. He greeted New York with 17 points, drilling 5 of 10 3-pointers in Game 1. Jackson's play earned him a three-year deal worth about $7 million. But he showed up to camp out of shape the next season and never recovered his old form.
Yeah, I think I would. It'd be rolling the dice a bit on a C/PF rotation of Dampier-Foyle-Fortson-Murphy (three guys who had significant injuries last year, and a rookie), but assuming GS cares about avoiding the luxury tax, it does the best job I can imagine of keeping the players they want and leaving flexibility to add or re-sign players as necessary while the core develops. BTW, this is the first time I can ever remember <i>not</i> urinating on a Warriors-related deal proposed on a message board (GS or otherwise), so savor the moment. I wouldn't, because I like Teego quite a bit. But GS management might ... I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the Warriors pursued Moochie the last time he was a free agent, and it seemed like Cummings was somewhat in Cowens' doghouse last year (fortunately for him, he was a favorite of St. Jean when the latter was coaching the previous year).
Oeilpere, if we choose to move Cato and Chicago is the selected destination, it seems to me that it would very possibly include a 3rd team. Supposing this is true, and the fact that we would have to net a center in return. Would Washingtion want anything from Chicago? Also I saw in one of your posts that you made 4-5 reference to Irish people. And Troy Murphy came to mind. Now I believe we were semi-interested in him at the draft. Could we be trying to get him?
I don't think Troy Murphy is gettable right now. In fact, if Marc Jackson is gettable (i.e., the Warriors won't match even a reasonably priced offer), Troy Murphy is the reason why.
OP, The fear that I have, is that the longer we wait to move him, the less value we'll get & we also, might not be able to move him at all, if we continue to put it off. If we keep him, I sure hope that he shocks the entire NBA with his newly found game. I have a question for you. You've said on more than one occasion, that Chicago is still interested in Cato & that the Rockets have felt that they weren't being offered fair value for him. Do the Rockets feel that a Cato for Miller trade would not be fair value or, are the Bulls trying to include some long term junk with Miller?
Smoke: Pack has some excellent talent and he plays the two REAL well. I liked what he showed us while in Dallas. But … he will need the ball a lot and that would mean Mobes doesn’t get it. He would be a liability at the one in my opinion. We really need a guy who can control the tempo at the one. Pack does not do that for us. A guy who can slow down or speed threaten from three quarter court, a guy who can passb well and excercises that option often, a guy who will blend in with the two most important players (and that’s Steve and Cuttino right now). Actually I just described Mooch didn't I !? It would seem good to have another one guard that can offensively threaten in replacement for Francis, but, IMHO that would not necessarily be a good move. For the Rockets. Not right now anyway. The only other negatives are that he has not commanded a team yet (Mooch did in the CBA, and in a fairly proficient manner too) and there has been talk that Pack has been difficult (coaching problems) in Dallas and Denver. I don’t usually put much store in these anecdotal type things but it doesn’t help his case any. Swopa/Hottoddie: The fact that they do have such a load at the front end (Dampier-Foyle-Fortson-Murphy) is the very reason letting Jackson go is so doable for them. I still say from my perspective that I would be holding onto Jackson and letting someone else pack their bags, I think most of us here would do that - but we're obviously not in a position to make calls like that. So having GSW renouncing any restriction/ "waiving rights" could make sense from their end. But getting Cummings from them is not to their advantage. Sura and Mookie are the ones they want to move,IMHO. A Cummings/Hughes backcourt either as platooning or as 1-2 tandem got to look awfully good to Dave Cowens. Then the one left over (Mookie or Sura) with Arenas (who I thought played an exceptional season and tournament last year) complete a nice four man stable. Sura may be the odd man out I think. Then depth-wise maybe Mookie. Or visa versa. Cummings may be the steadiest guy they have. Hughes hasn’t had the full season chance to explode yet. This year he will. Francis #903210 er …3422 … hike!: I think if Chicago was going to do a deal they would either go directly to us, or use Pacers or Detroit or New York. The Rockets have been down this road before with the other guys. There is nothing available (meaning a deal that would benefit us … not just desirable position-wise but doable for the right reasons, price tag, etc…) from the Pacers, the Knicks or the Pistons ( … well the Pistons do have a couple of players at a decent price … ). So even if a deal were struck with Chicago, I still think it would be a straight forward one for one or whatever deal … i.e. not involving anyone directly with us. I think Washington is generally also out of the question (with one exception)in a direct deal with Chicago … Who is available from Chicago that MJ would want? If your thinking Walt to Washington for White who is sent to Chicago for Miller …. you mean that kind of three-way where there is no direct trade between Chicago and Washington … well that kinda thing may have merit, but if we trade for White … believe me, we will be keeping him. The exception: Now the above deal with White ending up in Chicago, and us taking Ron Artest and Miller ….. by adding Cato(to Chicago) into the mix …. Well … that’s a different story …. The Irish reference has no bearing on any hidden knowledge or cryptic code, etc … . My family is a proud second-generation Irish brood and I have had some letters from home lately. Also, I’ve been written some Irish family history recently and got caught up in it maybe. Nothing mysterious. SwopieDoo: The Troy Murphy reference is right on. I agree wholeheartedly. Troy Murphy may have pushed the door closed for Jackson. Much the same way that Haywood has done so for MJ’s Jahidi White. (Well, that and Jackson’s demand for a favorable contract as well as White’s existing healthy double-decked contract.) Hottoddie: “ … the fear that I have, is that the longer we wait to move (Cato), the less value we'll get …” Well the gamble I think has been made. I think RT is almost convinced himself that unless a great deal comes by, (that means that will satisfy all his itches) he will go with who he’s got. That means, to a gambler anyway, he will stick to the bet and hope that Cato will markedly improve. Upside to no trade is: we start to get some production out of him, and then trade him or keep .... Downside is he is a known quantity and doesn’t hurt what we have. In other words, the worse case scenario if we keep him is he stays the same. If we trade him, we may have to take a lot to get nothing, or some other unknown. Best case scenario in a trade, of course, is RT gets exactly what he wants … an improved center presence complimenting Collier, possibly someone that has stronger defensive abilities than Collier (Willis,White), a different offensive presence (Jackson) or someone with so much upside that it’s worth a longterm gamble (Curry, etc … long,long shots). That being said, the safest bet may still be leaving Cato where he is, and get a filler (Willis, McCoy) to pick up the slack or move to the starting position (White or Jackson) ahead of Cato. “ … do the Rockets feel that a Cato for Miller trade would not be fair value or, are the Bulls trying to include some long term junk with Miller? … Honestly I don’t know. Some of what I do know: 1. Initially the talks started prior to the draft. The speculation there was that they had a pretty solid deal flowing along in the negotiation stage. We were going to give picks and this and that … and they were going to give us their pick and something. But that fell through before the first pick was called. Talks progressed afterwards but were far less concentrated or intense. 2. The Rockets, like all teams, compare a trade prospect’s game with our roster to determine how the game strategy changes and if we gain opponent matchup advantages, etc .... RT likes a diverse roster. Miller and Cato are miles apart in the type of game they play. That is good. Miller and Collier however are not that far apart. That is bad. Unless we added someone with a big man aggressive defensive style (you know the kind that Cato is supposed to be demonstrating!), then a Miller trade may not be a move forward, regardless if on the face of things Miller could out perform Cato. It could be that the Rockets want something more thrown in on any deal. ( Miller + Artest?) Could be Chcago does not want to gamble on Cato as much as all that. 3. The rumor of Curry for Cato keeps persisting, and I haven’t even come close to confirming anything. It is fodder for the rumor mill and actually walks that fine line between incredulous (too embarassing to mention) hilarity and that “crazy enough to have some truth to it” sort of thing. I don’t know what to think. I had the same type of thing initially with Francis coming here from Vancover, but I was able to get good confirmation early, then backed it up with a third firm source. That has not been the case with Curry. This is speculation only but – if it cost us dearly (as far as our available people go) for Curry, meaning Cato, Walt, KT, several picks and accepting some horrible contract(s) from Chicago (such as a couple long price tags… which would be needed to make it fit anyway) then … RT would likely make a decision to go with it. Recent Chicago History ( to give you some perspective): Rockets focus on draft night was a center/power forward. I have been told his scouts had Kwame Brown (I know I read the press spin that Griffin was their number one target, but well … understand spin doctoring and you'll know ... or we’ll talk …), then Griffin, Chandler and Curry. With the last two (Chandler and Curry - neck & neck). Brown was unavailable despite hard offers to washington from all over, Griffin got dropped down, Chandler and Curry were the next up and the reason Chicago traded so much to them. But Curry from what I have been told, can be had … for the right price. Cheers, guys.
OP, Thanks again for the explanation. I see your point about Miller/Collier's similar playing style. I guess I never gave that any thought before(Must've been blinded by my desire to dump Cato ). You've mentioned Willis in this post & in a couple of previous threads. Have the Rockets made any inquiries into acquiring him, or is he just a name that you've thrown out as an example, because of his style of play? The Curry speculation/rumor/wishful thinking/Yeah, baby! would be just the type of surprise move that we've become accustomed to in the last few years. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
Two players that RT and CD agonized over trading have been Othella Harrington and Kevin Willis. They are both the type of player that IS the Rocket's ideal role players. They are hard working to a fault, pushing themselves. Very coachable, even Willis who was a veteran and having worked for several franchises, was open to literally any task the staff sent him. Believe me they miss both of those guys. I met Kevin Willis when he was a Rocket after a game one time with a bunch of media types, having a "snack" after the game. Big bunch of us ran into him aand talked for a long while. Met him again (once in Toronto and once here) when he was with Toronto. (Not to give you any wrong impressions or anything - we are not homeys or anything .... probably kept wondering who the odd looking guy was all night .... ). The last time was here and it was just a couple of guys and me hanging. He has a very funny dry sense of humor, built like a racehorse but has great body action when he tells stories .... kinda the opposite of Charles Barkley who uses a lot of facial expression and deadpan, flop body language when he's trying to be funny .... and anyway Willis had some hilarious takes on the game. That night he had a run in with a couple of our Rockets during the game and people were sceaming at him after he dropped Charles and someone else on their butts in our paint. I posted his comments the next day ... he had me rolling on the floor laughing with his imitations of Chuck. Anyway, to answer your question ... no I have absolutely nothing current or recent that would point to him. Before he got sent to Denver, he was rumored in the media that he was being shopped heavily at the time. At least one deal was made public by the Raptors before Willis was told and it pissed him off. I had heard that some overtures were made for him by Houston at that time(between the inialt trades and the eventual trdae to Denver). A couple of things since but nothing that was solid or substantial. He has a nice two year contract left I think ... $2.2 to 2.4M or something a year .... and man even at his age he still commands some respect under the cotton. I sure would like to see him end his career here.
