All good points guys. Let’s tackle a couple of them, though. 1. Achebe: You dirty SOB. LOL 8-[] 2. VecseySux: Dear Peter - I saw RT the other day. He had a smile on his face. He was buckling his pants right after he flushed the bowl. 3. Cat: Williams doesn’t fit Riley’s game because of what his roster looks like right now, but I would bet money that his roster will change again and again before the start of the season. Williams has a good 20 minutes at 8ppg or so but there a lot of guys fitting that bill right now. I think Riley is after something else. 4. Today: Okay, “mum” it is. The problem with getting Jackson in a single year is you have to get him Free and Clear. No S&T(which requires a 3 year deal). Then you have to convince him a one or two year deal in Houston is better than a better deal in Indiana, or Seattle. Certainly not an insurmountable problem, but it is more than just picking up the phone making the deal, then signing. Sorry that sounds condescending. What I mean is, Jackson holds very little cards right now. His rep is dropping and GSW has a hold of his balls. If he is given an opportunity (which he will get if GSW is “bought off” by a trade to renounce their rights) to decide something for himself, he will go for the longest and most expensive deal available. Or hold out until that happens. We could get caught holding our johnson on a deal like that very easily, unless we nailed down some assurances. Like I said it would be a tricky deal. 5. Nike: We don’t need a PG that can shoot. We have tons of shooting talent. We need an offensive threat, sure … but a cheap PG who can pass, and carry the ball would be the criteria CD/RT would look at. I am not saying Cook would be my first choice, just that he would get a strong vote from me if he was listed. BTW, I also like the Mookie connection (contract trade-off, good veteran backup) and believe me CD/RT are well aware of how much GSW want to move him along. 6. ZRB: McCoy to me, everything being equal, is the less gamble of any of the guys we have been discussing (White, Jackson). The major down on that though, is that he will likely only get minimally better. Upside is you know what he brings, no surprises, and he comes at a less binding contract demand. White’s attraction is that he is more broad talented, can bang inside,good D and best of all, we unload a redundant player (Walt). Bad end is that White’s contract tends to bind us up for a couple of years, and as taleneted as he is, he still will never be our premiere center. Now if we can unload Walt and still pick up a light contract in McCoy, I would be pulling the trigger. 7. BobFinn: Mason doesn’t help us with our present roster. We have redundancies all over the place if we grab Mason. Great player, love to have him, but we would have to shift more than one or two players to make room, unfortunately. 8. Hey Today: How come you didn’t nail BobFinn for his spelling mistake?( “Board” = bored.) Must be my Irish brogue you keep picking at … but then Bob is a mick too …. can’t get any more Irish than Mickey Finn!. 9. Nugz: Yeah I know, but KV and I-Man both would rather have a bird in the hand than a bird in the bush. Are they really are so heart felt to keep Omar, especially if they can get their pick back, or a player that can sit but still contribute this year? I would bet on a trade when it comes to those guys. 10. Yakeem: That’s the ticket. Would CD/RT spring for a Jackson and Mookie deal if it cost them two players and a pick? My guess is yes, if that included Walt, probably a cap friendly (For Denver) additional player like KT, and one of the Toronto picks. 11. RocketPimp: Yes I kinda agree with that. But I was trying to make the point that we need a third pivot. That third option needs to have some qualities that include both defense and offense. Depending on what the performances of Cato and Collier will show, that third option can have average to minimal impact and still we would not get hurt. Taking everything into consideration an above average offense and a fair defense I could live with. But, a guy who can play above average defense and take it outside offensively would be as equally welcome. If his offense is solely an outside/perimeter/or 16 footer I could live with that. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive qualities. Personally I feel Collier is going to be great this year, and yes he is healthy. He will have a decent second year defensive presence, and he will take it in or out depending on who he is matched with ….but when shopping for a spare tire at the five, getting someone that can shoot the perimeter can’t hurt us either.
opie-I agree we don't necessarily need a shooter for a backup PG. But, if Cook could shoot a lick, he'd have been a first rounder. His upside is a shorter Jason Kidd (less rebounds). 10. Yakeem: That’s the ticket. Would CD/RT spring for a Jackson and Mookie deal if it cost them two players and a pick? My guess is yes, if that included Walt, probably a cap friendly (For Denver) additional player like KT, and one of the Toronto picks. Where does Denver come in a hypothetical trade for Mookie/Jax rights? If we could pull a Walt+extras for Mookie/Jackson, we'd start a potent offensive front line (Jackson-Taylor-Rice) and be able to come off the bench with some good defense (Cato-Griffin-Morris). Mookie is a good defender (all defense several times) but has lost a step. Most importantly, Mookie takes care of the ball. Two last questions: Why is Golden State choosing to go with Dampier/Foyle over Jackson? In your opinion, which center(s) is *most* likely to be acquired-Jackson, White, McCoy, or none.
I looked at the NBA depth charts on RealGM.com and I made my own projected final cuts. In addition to those players already mentioned, I think there may be a few players left when the season starts we might have some interest in: Ken Johnson, Kenny Satterfield, Trenton Hassell, Michael Ruffin, Michael Wright, Pepe Sanchez, Eduardo Najera, Jamison Brewer, Kahlid El Amin and Jeff Trapagnier.
I read that Ken Johnson got a guaranteed deal with some team overseas. He won't be playing in the NBA this year.
Axel Dench is the man here! The ROX had him playing (almost exclusively) outside in the 2 summer comps. Brings a championship ring with him too (from Australia's NBL, in the season just finished. While not the same standard, the exp in pressure playoff series/elimination games does. Ask Smeggysmeg about the pressure on everyone there, ref's included). Anyone know his chances? Buckley's & none (or is that an Aussie saying only)? Edit: Beaten to the punch by a raven lunatic!
1. Defense. Jackson's a wide body, but he's got gravity issues -- both vertically and horizontally. Which wouldn't be fatal if he was playing alongside a defending/shotblocking PF like Jermaine O'Neal in IND, but is if you're pairing him up with Danny Fortson, who's got the same issues. Dampier is actually a good defensive center when he's healthy, which he appears to be. Foyle's D is overrated, but for a backup he's okay. 2. Luxury tax. Ideally, GS would sign Jackson and use him as the backup C (and injury insurance at C/PF). But re-signing Hughes either this summer or next -- which the Warriors have apparently assured Jamison they'll do -- will put them very close to the luxury tax in '02-'03 (within about $2-4M, by my guess). So while Jackson may be worth as much as Foyle ($4M/year), GS may be reluctant to make the salary commitment unless they can first unload a well-paid backup -- namely, Bob Sura, Chris Mills, or Foyle, in approximate order of dumping preference. (A note: Trading Mookie would not help GS avoid the tax next season, since his contract expires at the end of this year. In fact, accepting anyone with a longer contract would make the tax situation worse ... so don't bet on any deal like that happening.)
oeilpere: I wasn't trying to be picky at the mom/mum mistake, I just wondered if you had done that on purpose and there was some inside joke that I was missing. Thanks for reminding me about the 3 yr contract clause in a sign and trade, I had forgotten about that. What is he being offered by Seattle and Indiana? If we are able to set up a scenario that would allow us to get Marc, I would think that he would rather come here assuming that he could get 30+ minutes a night. He would be able to pad his rebounding numbers with Mo Taylor being a little weaker in that area. He could then re-prove himself as a legitimate answer at the center position and get back out on the market again in 1-3 years. I do see your point that he will go else where for more years and more money, but if the money that he is offered by Seattle/Indiana is around what GS is offering, I wouldn't mind locking into a 4 or 5 year deal for 10-15 mil.
Nike: 1. Sorry I meant GSW not Denver. I was having a “I want my Margarita” attack just before leaving work, and juxtaposed the names. Happens. 2. Next - Omar has NOT got all the tools yet but he sure has some ups for a second rounder doesn’t he? Like I said (somewhere) he was really high in the East because of his college venue exposure but got passed to the second round because so many “good prospects” were available past the 25 – 30 spots. He was top shelf material on most spec’s charts pre draft. If you will remember Jason Kidd was a lousy shooter in NCAA too and even got knocked in his first Pro homes for a couple of years but developed a respectable shot threat. 3. Dampier and Foyle over Jackson. – After the end of the season, I thought Jackson was by far the better choice. I thought he had some drive and persistence which that anemic team needed …. But GSW are really getting pumped on Dampier this year. They are ready to cash in on a long, expensive wait for some production from him. I also think that Jackson may not be as bad or low-valued as some West coast people and even GSW think he is ….. BUT, also ….. he is probably not the second coming of Dr.J either as his supporters postulate. I guess in short they are more willing to trust in Dampier’s resurgence (and health), than cater to a one year producer. Frankly their gambles in the past have always been flops so I would still give the edge to Jackson on who will this contest of “who will be proved is right – and who is wrong”. 4. I’ll address your last question at the bottom of the post. Swoop: All good points, except …. a Walt for Mookie trade (who is as redundant as anyone else on the GSW, and a history of quarrels in the past) would effectively be a wash as far as cap/luxury/etc goes. I agree he would not be at the top of the unload list (IMHO, you are dead on with Bobby Sura and Mills) but he would still be on it somewhere. I still think they earnestly want and are committing to Foyle and Dampier. That may be a vote of confidence for Dampier and I thought Adonal Foyle did well last year. Well enough to get a GSW backup job? Today: All was said in jest. Good points on Jackson, especially what you would surmise his most productive role is if he were a Rocket. – rebound for Taylor, getting minutes, …. Etc … The fact is that we would still have to convince GSW not to sabotage any efforts (agree to renounce or not to match the offer), as well as convince Jackson of his importance and role – then …. sign for a 2-3 million in a two year deal. Heavy load to carry negotiation wise. Revelation of the day: I told everyone how I was bored yesterday. Usually I do not call any extra special sources for comments. The way it works is - I get a call or see them face to face on occasion, they tell me a tidbit, we discuss it, then I try to confirm it or get some corroborating view from another source. If it is substantiated I then figure out whether I will post it or not …. Anyway, sometimes I get something and don't post it, sometimes I get something and it is really not very revealing or anything .... so I shelve that ..... sometimes I post something that is not very informative but is revealing ..... but anyway ..... yesterday I called a good source, my best source, the one that makes all of this worth while … and asked a couple specific questions. As I said I don’t usually do this ….. but I was extremely bored with what was happening, maybe even pissed with this hurry up and wait attitude … and well ….. here it is …. The Call We exchanged some pleasantries and hellos, etc ... Question(ME): So what are you guys going to do? (laughing) I mean it’s September and we still need a five, we still got too many threes, still don’t have a backup first guard. What’s going on? Answer(HIM): I’ll tell you this …. It is not as simple to make moves as some of you and your friends (cc.net posters?) think. If we sign Norris we just may say the hell with it, **** it, and go with what we have. Question: Dang, you mean Cato at the five, Walt still hanging at the three, man that is bold. Real bold. There are still some guys out there … Answer: Ya, but wait a minute … (laughs ) for every guy you can name I can give you a problem that we get … either with him, or with trading someone from here, or his contract or something …. J***s … you have no idea …. (laughs) I mean yeah it’s nice to drop someone ( off the roster?) but we’re working on something here (chemistry?) …. And, ah , ya know ya sometimes can’t just start moving people for the sake of moving them. Question: Yeah, I know … but I mean Walt is redundant now, and we either keep Cato ….. Answer: … which is probably right …… Question: ….. what … keep Cato? Answer: Ya. We probably will be …. I mean yeah … try another year. Jason Collier is doing good... ah ... have you heard? ……But sure .... (sigh) ... I’d like another (center?) but we have other options too …. look I gotta go … Question: Yeah okay, thanks …. hey so what’s up with the Washington thing …. Jahidi White …… Answer: …. Ah, ya know ah …***t I don’t know where we’re going with any of them any more (laughs) …. look gotta go…. If ya want .... think of the team as almost finished … I mean now (complete roster???) Question: .. hey thanks … I wouldn’t call unless I really, really need to know something …. that …. you know it’s been a while and ah …..but hell YOU can call ME anytime (I laughed ) …. Answer: Ya okay … (laughs) …. No I’ll call ya … I will if we get something, like ah, solid …if I get something …. Question: …okay, thanks again … mind if I write this up …. It’s just there isn’t a lot …. Answer: …. Ya… hell we didn’t say anything …. ya (laugh) …. go ahead … no problem … We said our goodbyes,etc….. This sounds more and more like we are all sweating over dealing, wheeling and trading and they have resigned themselves to “going with the flow”. It kinda didn’t surprise me in one way … pissed me in another .... Cheers from the work pit.
OP, What are your thoughts on this trade idea? Houston sends Cato/Drew obligation to Chicago. ($6,048,000) Houston sends Walt/future #1 pick(?) to Golden State. ($5,000,000) Golden State sends Sura to Houston & agrees to not match our offer to Jackson. ($4,913,334) Chicago sends Voskuhl/Miller to Houston. ($4,865,850 + $690,000 Trade Kicker for Miller) I'm assuming that Chicago still wants Cato & I've read a couple of articles that indicate GSW wants to move Sura's contract. According to RealGM, we currently have (approximately) $1.35 mill under the cap, if we renounce Moochie. With the trade, we would acquire another $578,816 in cap space, for a total of $1,931,434 under the cap. I wouldn't renounce Moochie until after the deal was done. If we were to trade KT away for someone at about half his contract, we would acquire another $400-500K. We would then be able to offer Jackson about $2-2.3 mill in his first year, which would be considerably more than he's being offered currently. Even without trading KT, we could still offer him the $1.9 mill in his first year. In the end, we'd end up acquiring Miller/Sura/Voskuhl(trade fodder?) & sign Jackson, while dumping Walt/Cato/Fegan & possibly losing KT. I'd hate to see Moochie leave, but this deal (if it's feasible) would solidify our front line & bring us an experienced guard in Sura. Golden State would be able to drop the $5.54 mill salary of Sura, acquire some outside shooting(albeit inconsistent), & possibly a future #1 pick. Chicago, with Oakley & Floyd, might be able to motivate Cato & would also be released from our strangle hold on their #1 picks. Our lineup would look like this: C: Miller/Jackson/Collier/Voskuhl(IR) PF: Taylor/Griffin/Jackson/KT? SF: Rice/Langhi/T-Mo SG: Mobley/T-Mo PG: Francis/Sura What do you think?
OP, Since we're stuck with Walt, we can always use him to simulate Rice in practice while he's rehabing his foot. Silver lining kinda of thing, you know...
i believe hes ours until renounced or traded. i know if he plays in the developemental league or europe we still get him. in fact, francisco elson, our 2nd round pick like 2-3 years ago, is still ours. not sure of the time limit.
see, this is why this doesnt make sense to me. when we got him, we knew what we were getting - a young, good dribbling pg who cant shoot. and what do we know now? hes young, can dribble and cant shoot. what has been done to change our minds? its like asking issel if hed take the trade back now with orlando and get that other pick back (as if it never happened). of course hed say no.
Hottoddie 1. First off I don’t think they have convinced themselves (yet?) of moving Cato as the most advantageous thing to do. I do think that if they were to move Cato it would be very likely that Chicago would be the place. 2. I think that including some trade fodder like V is probably in the backs of the “brain trusts” in Chicago, just like we would like to include some fringe, or redundant players from here. So someone like that would have to be included more than likely. 3. I like Bobby Sura would not hurt us i don't think, but he has a heavy contract … and man … we would be trading Mooch, a guy who did everything that has been asked of him, plays well within our system, and is well liked … chemistry-wise and coaching-wise … asking a somewhat respectable $2 mill/year over four years. ... for a guy that will make $4+ to 6+Million a year for 3-4 years as a backup. Doesn’t sound reasonable to me. More importantly I don’t think The Rockets would like it either. But I have been wrong before. 4. To dipsy-doodle around and sign Jackson to another 2-3 year contract also, on top of everything else you suggested .... well … that with everything else in your trade scenario is risking too much in my way of thinking. (See #5) 5. Jacob Voskuhl is not any help. Poor performer. Great upside ... but hell anyone who makes it to the NBA has to have some upside ..... (beginning to hate that word - "upside") . I would take Ron Artest long before I would consider Jake. He (Atrest) would make us redundant also, but he is a great “off the bench” swingman. I think if they ever came around to unloading Cato the Rockets would have to be convinced they would not be getting hurt somewhere else (too much fodder and flotsum or too long in the contract department for fringe players,etc ), and .... they would have to immediately/simutaneously replace Cato with someone else who could start. Jackson okay , I'll buy that ... but Jackson and filler and long contracts and overpaid bench warmers (Sura,etc...) no way. That makes the whole excercise not worthwhile. 6. I sure would hate to lose KT. 7. The reality is that if we are trying to fill too many holes, with too many question marks, and too soon ... we will lose on many fronts. Not just in the chemistry department. 8. The distinct impression I get is that CD/RT (and company) are trying to sign Mooch, then deal with some inherent roster problems. I would expect Mooch to be signed. And I would expect one more trade maybe. A relatively uncomplicated one too. If it includes cato, then we would be getting a measureable worth .... That doesn't look likely real soon .... the best bet is to retain Cato, fill a five spot and somehow get some worth out of our 3 spot ... that is ... trade someone (Walt?). Cheers.
Yeah but Nugz .... you also acquired Avery ..... the unpredictable VanX-man may have set everyone straight on who and what will happen to his PG position ... or he starts causing trouble ... lots of things may have happened since Omar's drafting. The most telling thing is they are balking at a one million/year in a two year deal(third not guaranteed) that was proposed by his agent. When they all but demonstrated (by trading a first rounder to get him from the second round from the Magic) that they originally thought his worth was a guaranteed-type couple year ("almost" first round) expense. You tell me what happened here? It would be like us saying to TMo ... okay we couldn't draft you because of the three player deal for Griffin, but we traded a first rounder to get you ... and oh yeah .... now we will pay you only 500K a year for only one year, AND we hold the option to drop your butt by December. The Rockets would be sending a strong message to someone if they did that. It just doesn't make sense .... believe me ... they have to be lowballing him for a specific reason. BTW: If I-man could take that pick back he would be sweating and drooling all over it. IMHO anyway.
OP, Thanks for the feedback. Keeping Cato really makes me nauseous. My mom always had a saying that sounded stupid at the time, but makes a lot of sense now. She would say that "A leopard doesn't change it's spots, it just moves them around a little bit." This saying seems to apply to Cato when you consider that he refused to participate in any of the summer leagues & didn't go to the big man camp, that he said he wanted to go to. The man (& I use that word sarcastically) doesn't have any desire to improve his game & seems content to just get by on his natural athletic abilities. The wishfull thinking some others have presented that he'll just turn it on, now that Dream's shadow is gone, doesn't wash with me either. I sure hope Collier really steps it up this year & that the Rockets are able to trade for an adequate center that WANTS to play. As far as Voskuhl, he has a team option after next year, which would allow us to get him off the books & he only counts for $465,850. My thinking on KT was that he could be replaced by Jackson at the PF position or, if Jackson would sign for the $1.9 mill in available cap space, we could keep KT. I agree with you about losing Moochie & acquiring Sura, but because Moochie's unrenounced value ($680,550) counts against the cap & there would be no way that we could acquire Jackson without having to move some other players for reduced salaries in return, it just seemed the easiest way to get the front line shored up. In regards to your concern over Sura's contract, he's only got 3 years left & if we could acquire both Jackson & Miller in the deal to shore up the front line, while moving Cato's contract, we would be right at the salary cap for this year with just T-Mo left to sign. In the end, your point #8 will probably be the best for the team, but hey, a guy can dream can't he?
1. Even if all things were equal I would still like to have Mooch instead of Bobby Sura. Don't ask me why. Could be the 'fro, I don't know. 2. The problem I have with Jacob V is basically he is taking up a roster spot. I* could live with it if it was a deal breeaker ... but, well I would rather just send him home to his wife and say thank you, we'll call. 3. Despite Cato's laissez faire attitude, I think he is healthy and can he play a role ... even if it is limited .... (read that as - not starting or pulling big minutes). He is a problem (which is becoming more and more apparent) that we will have around for the coming season. So I would not unload everything, destroy some other working, striving chemistry on the roster just to unload him. I think I would have done that very thing only a couple of months ago ... now I am not so sure. I think I like the idea of living with him for now, find a suitable alternative for Cato(a third five) or a backup to Jason Collier, and let Cato play only when he earns it. 4. Yeah I see that KT for Jackson thing and frankly it probably would work nicely. Although I think KT better get ready to take less minutes this year. Jackson taking his (KT's) spot minutes at the four, then start or relive at the five would not be a bad platooning. 5. I still think the key is to solidify the backup PG (Moochie or whoever), then unload Walt while gaining one more five ..... and to do so without upsetting anything else. That's why a complicated manuevering of players (multi team scenario) with the addition of other players is not in our best interest. IMHO anyway. I will bet even money that this is the present philosophy of CD/RT also. (See phone call.)
Actually, we could do that. Waive him & sign "Pig" for the veteran's minimum & still be just over the cap by about a mill. I see your point & appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. By the way, would you consider it if Sura grew a fro?
Basically, there's three things we are looking to do: 1. Add a center (McCoy, White, Jackson, Piglet, etc.) 2. Add a backup PG (Moochie, other) 3. Fix the SF glut (adios Malt) Obviously, Walt for Jahidi and resigning Mooch would be the swiftest move to satisfy all 3. Before signing Moochie, we'll have a little more than 1 mill to straight sign Marc to an offer sheet. Of course, we could probably get up to a 2 mill base for Jackson by renouncing Moochie, which would make a lot of sense if we had a trade worked out for an alternative at the backup PG slot. It'd be very nice if Cuttino and Griffin call up their Philly connections to get Jackson aboard.
So far, this offseason, the Rockets' front office has not hurt the team. 2 fine rookies made it the best draft day in a while. Dream had all but retired. We received picks, that we wouldn't have gotten if he did. We traded a backup 2, at best, for a veteran starting 3. We've said goodbye to Bull before. If we sign Mooch, I couldn't blame the Rocks for standing pat. It is usually at this point, that I'm thinking "If we could keep most of what we have and just add..." when, Boom!! "Sam, Horry and who? for what? Barkley!" or "Mike, Othella and what the **** for ????? Holy crap!! Steve Francis?? wow... bet the BBS is cooked." All this calm makes it feel like "deja vu, all over again". It's like the music in jaws. That low, dull dah dah, dah dah. You know something is out there. Really though, I just wanted to see the colors
