Yes, he does all those intangible things that don't show up on the scorecard. But how do you justify 3 reb (particularily .4 off reb) , 44% fg, 50% ft, 9 pts per game? Those numbers are some of the worst in the league for starting PFs. I feel it's easy to look at what Shane does and say "wow, look at him hustle, I love him." ... but does it really offset or at least translate to points that make him more valuable than other PF's or even a Rudy Gay potential? That I feel, is a very hard question to answer yes. Most of the time people are so caught up in quoting stats when it didn't tell the other side of the story (see francis). But I feel the converse is going on for Battier - you just can't justify .4 off reb and and 3 reb a night for a "hustle guy." Btw, those +/- stats are misleading of course due to the rotations the Rockets have (usually with hayes + yaoming who have huge +/-)
Best way the commentators put it: Battier gives you extra possessions. I would say in the Bulls game we gained at least 5 possessions. Every charge he takes is a possible four point swing. Regarding Gordon, he was just hot. You figure us being Rockets fans, we know what a player on fire can do. Do the Spurs blame Bowen for letting TMAC scoring 13 in 33?
If you watched the games you would notice that he is not our starting PF for the past 5 or 6 games he has been starting at SF. Tmac, Yao, and Hayes have been rebounding out of there mind lately as well as our guards. We are outrebounding most teams by double digits and a lot of it has to do with tipping passes to teammates or boxing out someone so another teammate can get the rebound. He has consistently had one of the highest +/- the past couple of years in this league and he has averaged about 5 rebs./game at the SF position which he is more than capable of this season. If we are consistently outrebounding teams why does it matter how many rebs. Battier has? Are you suggesting that Battier isn't a hustle guy? Just watch him play and you will know he makes winning basketball plays night in and night out(except last night, kind of an odd time to post praise for Battier after last night's game but I am going off of his whole career which I have watched plenty of). He took about 5 charges last night, some of them weren't called and his assists are up as well as his steals. Make no mistake about it, Battier has made a huge impact on this team.
True, there is no shame in having Ben Gordon torch you. He is an amazing player and once he gets consistency he will solidify himself as one of the better scorers in the league which he already is in the 4th quarter. I think I remember last year he was top 5 in the league in 4th quarter points.
Sorry my mistake about still typing in PF. You write that his ast are up... to 3? He is not averaging 5 reb and may or may not average 5 reb. He is averaging 3 right now and that is fact. I am not trying to argue he isn't a hustle guy at all. I completely recognize he does so many things that aren't on a stat sheet and may or may not appear in some other player's stats. But I'm playing devil's advocate and asking what if we are so enamored with all these "intangibles" that we are totally neglecting the flip-side - the weaknesses of his "tangible" production. Does it really offset?
It does, because ultimately the TEAM is producing points when he is on the floor. You see, that's the whole point of +/- stats: how much positive impact you have on your team. In the end, anyone could average a double double and still see his team lose (or rain down points and see his team lose, just ask Michael Redd and his 57 bombers). His individual stats are not the most important thing: the W is the most important thing. I don't care what his box score is as long as he is helping the team get that W. For example, imagine Kirk Snyder had been the one guarding Nocioni on that last shot attempt. Do you think he wouldn't have jumped and fouled Nocioni? Well, that question isn't even worth answering -- he was actually responsible for keeping Chicago in the game by committing a stupid foul on a loose ball that nearly caused JVG to go nuts. He did not return to the game after that. Now I love Kirk Snyder and what he brings to the table -- ultimately he could become a very good player for us. But you can clearly see why Battier earns his paycheck, and why JVG is always gushing over him. He NEVER does anything wrong on the court. And that's the kind of player that makes you win games.
Yes he is not getting that many rebounds, but right now the rox are killing people off the glass. That is what is important. Everyone felt the Rox would be killed cuz shane couldnt rebound well enough as a 4. Right now he isnt playing that much 4 and even if he was does it matter cuz him getting more rebounds would be at the expense of Yao's, Hayes', or Tmac's rebounds cuz the Rox are still owning the glass. As for his intangibles, Battier is one of the few players in the league who can play a huge role in the game without big stats. It is very easy to imagine Batiter having 5 points and 3 rebounds, but still contributing but that isnt the case with Gay. Final point being the Rox are winning .667 percent of their games so far and Battier has played a large role in that. Yes it is only 9 games in, but if you look a the schedule the Rox have played some solid teams so far. Our three losses are on the road to a 7-1 team and a 6-3 team, and at home to a 6-2 team after we were up 19. As for our wins, we have beaten some good teams who were expected to compete this year, even though they have struggled so far (Mavs, Heat, Bulls).
Our starting PF is Chuck Hayes. The last 2 games it has been Juwan Howard. Here is the starting line up. C Yao PF Chuck/Juwan(until Chuck is back) SF T-Mac SG Battier PG Alston 3 rebounds is slightly below average for a SG. The intangibiles may not show up in his stats, but they some of them do show up in the box scores. When he takes a charge, they are showing up on the oppenent's personal foul stats. He makes 1.7 3-pters a game. That's good. A FG% of 44% is good for a guard, especially one that attempts over 4.5 3-pters a game. 1.4 steals is average to slightly above average for a shooting guard. He locked down Dwayne Wade that was good.
He actually did return to the game - about 4 times. JVG took him out because he was annoyed, but also because he was switching offense/defense with Head and Snyder the last 1:30 or so. I thought that was a pretty novel thing for JVG. From crossover And why is it not possible the +/i is high for Hayes/Yao in part due to Battier? I do know Battier has a better than 4 AST/TO ratio, and a better than 2 STL/TO ratio. On a team with 2 superstars. And that doesn't take into account the number of charges per game he draws. Battier creates possessions on the defensive end, and doesn't give them away offensively. That is invaluable for a team that is built like ours. So his rebounding is down? The Rockets are still 6th in rebound differential - that's not a problem. His scoring is only 9 PPG, but his percentages are also down a little bit. I'd be perfectly happy with him averaging 12 ppg, and I think he'll end up there as this team finds its stride.
First, if you were following along closely (you obviouslyt weren't) you'd have noticed that the one game comment was a response to someone trying to tell us what a great game Battier had against the Bulls. And that the game was exemplary of "intangibles"...BS... Battiers stats were bad and so was his +/-. Secondly, before you start crowing about how great Battiers +/- numbers are, wouldn't it at least make analytical sense to observe the level of competition the Rockets have been winning against? Excluding Rockets and +/-... CHI: 3-4 (-9) MIL: 3-5 (-1) NYK: 3-5 (+12) MEM: 1-5 (+10) MIA: 3-3 (+6) DAL: 3-3 (+18) --------------- TOT: 16-25 PER 82: 32-50 The way those teams are all playing right now, we could have beaten them without making the trade. Couldn't find SA but throw out the aberation of the DAL game, add +8 at Utah and + 1 at NOK and the huge +17.5 drops dramatically. Since there are so many fans of 82games here, why don't we focus on the next columns over from the +17.5....the ones that say Battier scores 12.7 while giving up 18. So every $Ball charge Battier takes is worth 2.5 points? Right. Like I said many times before, they were a playoff team with or without the trade. Except without the trade, they would have 1) Had an athletic MLE $ off the bench PF/C (Swift) when Deke retires. 2) A potential 3rd scorer and someone to pick up the slack when Yao tires from the rigors of the 2008 Olympics. 3) A potential scorer when the high-mileaged McGrady retires in the summer of 2010. But then, none of this fits "WIN NOW"...but unfortunately even with a mass infusion of intangibles we haven't been able to do that yet against current WC playoff caliber teams.
i love him too. and jvg. and this whole team. we may loose a few, no need to say anyone sucks or should be fired. we're going far.
GATER -- I think you know that that is hardly a proper characterization to make. Let's put it in the context of the late 90s/early 00s 76ers. Iverson and Snow were pretty interchangeable in the backcourt as far as who would guard whom. Call Iverson a 30 ppg scorer, and we'll be nice and call Snow a 10 ppg scorer. You have two defensive players: one good, one bad. You put the better one on Iverson obviously. As a result, Iverson scores 20; Snow scores 15. Your "good" defensive player gave up 20, and the bad one gave up 15, but who did the better job? I don't expect Battier to outscore his opponent. But he does so much to facilitate the offense and allows the playmakers to get extra possessions to make plays. I think there's a reason if you look just on the offcourt numbers, we have the biggest dropoff by far when he's off the court: -7.8. Next best is without Yao, -3.7. Further, good riddance to Swift. You really just have a higher opinion than Gay at this point than I do. For the "next T-Mac" to have 0 assists in his first 144+ minutes, and 1 in his first 168 minutes of NBA playing time is a little astonishing. Hell, Bonzi Wells has 3 assists this season.
If we are winning, that must mean something, right? If we just look up our team stats, the only difference this year's team and last year's team is Shane. So he must have had a great impact on us right? I don't understand why everybody is so caught up in the numbers. Every team needs guys that sacrifice their stats for the betterment of the core players. Shane is that guy. According to most of you, we should just aggregate everybody with the best stats, and that will give us the best team.
NIKE - IMHO we don't need to run en masse to 82games or go into the bowels of statistical minutia every time we need to justify the pro and con of the trade. The bottomline is drop dead simple. As horrendous as last season was, the Rockets beat NOK, swept MIL AND the Knicks, and split with CHI. We mortgaged any potential future to bring in Battier to be competitive with the elite teams of the WC...ie WIN NOW. At this juncture, all we are doing is beating the same teams we beat last season. Regarding the efficiencies your attributing to Battier...respectfully submit that I'm not seeing it. I have no way of putting it into a test tube for verification. My gut-level instinct tells me that we'd have been better off (at least deeper) with Swift and Rudy Gay. Or trading down for a vet fastened to Sefolosha, or calling the Grizzlies bluff and getting their 1st round pick. All of these are preferable IMHO. As far as NBA management, believe it or not there still are a few folks out there who actually develop an opinion based upon observation first with statistical backup. I may be alone but strongly believe that's preferable to statistical analysis with an absence of human oversight.
I have to co-sign here, and elaborate a bit. If Shane is supposed to have the toughest defensive assignement game in and game out (which he does) playing D against the likes of Dwyane Wade, Ben Gordon and Tim Duncan, then I'm very happy with him giving up 18 points a game. Remember, for the best player/scorer on a team in the NBA, 18 points is an off night. The rule with big-time scorers such as AI, Kobe, Arenas and the like is that they are almost always going to get their points. Therefore, what you have to ask yourself when evaluating the defender's game that night is, "How many shots did it take to get their points?". If someone goes, say, 10-25 and scores 27, then the defender made the best player on the court work hard for every point on every possession. By that analysis, Shane Battier is doing his job. Dwyane Wade went 8-22 for 24 points with Battier guarding him the entire night; I'll take that any night. As for Ben Gordon? When that guy is hot, he's hot. T-Mac himself on the Jim Rome show said that they didn't have an answer for Gordon in the 4th quarter. That's going to happen some nights in the NBA. While it still seems too soon to fully evaluate Battier, if he can play defense on scorers like D-Wade night in and night out, then I have no reason to down Battier.
