How can you ignore Collier's 0 point, 0 board, 10 minute games while you praise his 7 point 3 board games? I look at all the games Collier played in, and he averaged a pitiful 3 points, and 1.6 boards. Because he was hurt for almost all of those games! How many times do I have to say this? The only fair way to judge a player is in games in which he was healthy. We don't need scoring from our backup center, we get that from Mo. So you're saying our backup center should compliment our power forward? Let's think about it... the PF's playing with Collier on the 2nd unit will be Eddie Griffin and Kenny Thomas, excellent inside players who are tough on the glass! So wouldn't Collier complement them well? I saw him play. He is big, slow, and talentless. He gives the Rockets nothing that they need. Why don't the stats from when he was healthy support your argument then? Also, I'd say that people who have watched him in his college career, in workouts, on game film, etc. would have a little bit better idea on whether or not he has talent, don't you think? Rocketsmillenium- the problem is, Collier isn't even solid. He played 1 or 2 solid games, and 21 trashy games. He struggled against garbage-time competition. He is not even close to being "solid", talentwise. The games I listed were way more than 1 or 2. In almost every single game he was given the backup center minutes and was healthy, he made a big contribution on the floor in meaningful minutes. The times he struggled and played garbage minutes were after his injury, and thus completely irrelevant.
Elie's game isn't really that "all-around" either, he only scored about 9 ppg during the championship season and about 7 ppg the following year. His 3pt shooting percentage wasn't all that much higher then Bowen's either. It doesn't matter if it's a set shot if you hit the shot. Actually ZRB's point was that Collier was a bad player which you can't seriously judge on his performance last year. Why throw away a quality back-up center just because we don't have a starting center? Nobody is saying that Cato and Collier is the answer, all I'm saying is Collier will give us quality minutes off the bench. Hopefully the Rockets will trade for a starting center or Cato will come alive.
The Cat, I'm with you concerning Collier. I think he'll be a fine pro and should be a pleasant surprise this year, health permitting. Now as for those who claim that Collier can't jump so he can't board or defend, he's slow, blah blah blah, I have two words for you: BILL LAIMBEER In all honesty, Laimbeer was smaller, slower, and not as talented as Collier. He couldn't jump over an uncrumpled sheet of paper, never ran the floor and finished, and the only shot he ever took was a 3. At least Collier has a bit of a low post game. But Laimbeer was ox-strong (hmm), crafty, and was one hell of a position defender and rebounder (HMMM!). Kinda similar to a certain C/PF from Georgia Tech, huh? Granted, I'm not hailing Collier as the next Laimbeer (or Mahorn, who was even more limited and not much more athletic), but if Collier even comes close to providing Laimbeer's quality of play the Rocks will be that much better. At least give the guy a chance (a FULL HEALTHY SEASON) before anyone puts him in the "Derrick Chevious, Dave Jamerson, John Turner Hall of Busts."
Cat, even when he contributed, it was not what the Rockets needed. Scoring is nice, but the Rockets have plenty of that. They need rebounding and defense. Collier provides none of that. Shouldn't you be simming?
Scoring is nice, but the Rockets have plenty of that. They need rebounding and defense. Collier provides none of that. If having great rebounders is a great concern for you, why were you in favor of Mo Taylor and not in favor of Antonio Davis? And if you're worried about complimenting Mo Taylor, remember that Mo is on the 1st unit, and Collier the 2nd. Collier would be used more as a compliment to Eddie Griffin and Kenny Thomas, not to Mo Taylor. BTW, I'm at work, so no simming right now. Will try to do it later tonight.
ZRB Is there one d*mn player you like? Is their any d*mn thing you like Man you are just a walking pitcher of HATER-AID Rocket River
Collier just doesn't seem like a very good basketball player to me. He's tall and big, but he has horrible lateral movement. This to me is his biggest downfall. When you watch him its kind of sad in a way becuase it does look like he tries --unlike Cato's pathetic ass -- but it just seems like he's not able to recover quick enough, or move over fast enough to support, or to grab a rebound. Maybe his nagging injuries played a part in this but I noticed this right away during last years pre-season Rocky mountain revue games as well. I guess he could become a decent backup center in this league though, but i'd rather the Rockets be deeper up front so they would not be in such dire need of his limited services. But we play with the guys we have, so although it may be painful to watch at times, I'll be rooting for big Collier to swing some elbows in Shaqs direction.
Really off topic, but: I don't remember his stats, but when Elie filled for star players (I think for Drexler at Portland, can't remember who for GS) he put together some very decent all-around numbers. Bowen could never fill as much of a void as Elie could. #1, they are not equal shooters by any strentch of the imagination: Career stats, Bowen FG (ugh) 36% 3s 34% FT (ugh) 60%; Elie FG 47% 3s 37% FT 85%. And this is just raw numbers and doesn't consider the fact Elie has drained pressure shots, something that does not show in stats. #2 remember Elie was a great foul shooter and could read the floor and was consistent on the drive. Elie by know means was ever a "great player, he always was a role player, but he had enough dimensions (good d, great set shot, good driver with court vision, and most of all, a firey clutch competetier) that you really couldn't isolate on any real weakness of his. Again there are at most 1 handful of starting 3s worse than Bowen and plenty of back-ups better than him. Players like Elie (a few years ago), Fox, Horry and Russell are OK role players in championship caliber teams when penciled in as starters around great players, Bowen does not have any of these guys complete games. He was great signee by the Spurs based on price, but you don't want to count on an offensively limited wing player to be a starter if you are trying to get to a championship Back on topic: I agree we should wait and see if Collier develops into a consistent quality back-up C who can give us a different look. The jury is still out on him.
Live, i haven't seen any similarites between Bill Lambieer and Jason Collier so far. Collier is anything but ox strong and crafty. And he certainly is not a hell of a position defender. i'm sorry but you are seeing what you believe and are projecting images of Colliers play that are just not in the realm of reality. The limited amount of action I've seen Collier play tells me a couple of things about his basketball skills so far. (1) He tends to lumber and loaf around, especially in half court sets. (2) He has horrible left to right and front to back mobility. Probably the worst in the league, imo. Live, I think it would be more reasonable to compare Colliers basketball skills, so far, to that of an Oliver Miller or Thomas Hamilton, than a Bill Lambieer.
The limited amount of action I've seen of Collier play tells me a few things of his basketball skills. He tends to lumber and loaf around especially in half court sets. He has horrible mobility, left to right, front to back. Probably the worst in the league, imo. Shouldn't descriptions from those of us who have watched him for more than that limited time be more valid then? Collier has good mobility for a big man-- that is one of the things that the Rockets liked about him in their pre-draft workouts. He can move well, has decent footwork, and is not near a lumbering oaf by any stretch. My guess is that the majority of games you saw him in were those after he had his injury, and those games are completely irrelevant.
I don't "hate" Collier, I just want his ass cut. Of course I will cheer when he does well, but I simply don't think the Rockets should put any stock in him.
Collier Vs Cato Athleticism: cato hands: COLLIER by a mile Rebounding: about even Shooting: Collier Passing: Collier Position Defense: Collier Overall Defense: Cato Timing: collier [Cato goes for too many head fakes] Speed: Cato Quickness: Cato setting Picks: Collier Rocket River I like what Collier brings to the game. I like what Cato brings
The Cat, I've watched every Rocket game for a couple of years and Colliers play the last two seasons has been limited, right? So in a way i'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. If he's been injured and hampered by bad knee then he deserves more time before the book is closed on him. But from what i've seen so far it doesn't look to promosing. You can take notes and nice sounding quotes from the understandably biased coaches mouth, but i know what I see. And Collier has horrible mobility and this kills his effectiveness. I'm hoping its nagging injuries that have lead to this concern of mine. If not, then can he make up for this hindrance with sheer desire, will, and constant knee burns.?Maybe. I hope so.
Rockettebustier Collier has only been on the team for on year. I admit collier is slow but so are most guys his size. Collier is a solid player that can hold his position with most NBA centers. He also has a sweet mid range shot and is a decent rebounder. Until, you can really figure out a way to get someone better (I'm not talking about these Cato for Shaq type fantasy trades), stop dissing Collier.
Rockbox, I knew last year was Colliers first year. My point was i've been watching every Rocket game for the last couple of years and last year i did not see a less amount of game time, invovling Collier, than the next guy. rockbox, What is it about you that leads you to believe I'm dissing or hating on somebody just because I point out a visual fact. To me your dissing reality and fantasizing Collier with decent basketball skills. This isn't about any other center, im just pointing out a major fault, a natural trait in Collier that he may not be able to overcome. I'm not comparing him with Joe blow. Colliers not slow in the average sense of slow, he plays heavy, by that i mean everything is slow motion with him, from his arm movement, to head movement, and worse of all, feet movement. It's like he has to gather up all this energy just to proceed into a trot. His body frame is far too heavy for him or something, and its not his fault of course, and theres nothing he can do about it, it just sucks.
Posted by theCat <i> Shouldn't descriptions from those of us who have watched him for more than that limited time be more valid then? Collier has good mobility for a big man-- that is one of the things that the Rockets liked about him in their pre-draft workouts. He can move well, has decent footwork, and is not near a lumbering oaf by any stretch. My guess is that the majority of games you saw him in were those after he had his injury, and those games are completely irrelevant </i> Posted by Rockettebustier <i> The Cat, I've watched every Rocket game for a couple of years and Colliers play the last two seasons has been limited, right? </i> OUCH. A little to quick to the defense of your main man there Cat. As for you EJ Tucker. Ive made it very clear, that I have seen Collier play many many times in college, and now in the NBA. So I would assume my assesments are much more acurate than those of the likes of you who have seen what maybe a few of his "healthy" "When he gets the minutes" "when the sun is positioned right" games. Lets get some facts straight Fact: Collier is slow Fact: Collier cant jump very well at all Fact: Collier is not a Shooter (show me some proof that he is cause his college and first year NBA numbers dont show it) Fact: His defense stinks. He averaged what 1 block per game in college!?!?! and .13 last year. Those are facts. Not speculation, not that it wont change, but they are factual bits of his game. So right now he is a slow, non athletic, poor-to average shooter, whos defense is very, very weak. So no give me the actual strong points to his game. Dont give me what he did in the last 12 minutes of a game decided 2 quarters ago.
DS It is not a fact to say Collier isn't a shooter. The guy can shoot. He needs an open look, but he can knock it down. He also has a great fundamental understanding of the game. You can tell, just by watching how efficient his movement is and how properly he plays the pnr. imo, he is a quick and decisive thinker. On offense, that often trumps speed. imo, Bullard could learn offenses faster than anyone on our team. I believe Collier has that potential. Plus, he doesn't look like a deer in headlights when he gets the ball, like Langhi does.
OUCH. What? How was I too quick to rush to his defense? I said I had watched Collier more than the limited time he played last year, meaning in college. He did nothing to refute that point. Fact: Collier is not a Shooter (show me some proof that he is cause his college and first year NBA numbers dont show it) Watch the games, and you can see that he will nail the open jumpers. Matt Bullard didn't exactly have a lights out percentage from the field either-- would you consider him a poor to average shooter? Field goal percentage is not the way to determine who is and who isn't a good shooter, in most cases. And on defense... is shotblocking the only form of defense? How did Shaq have probably his two worst games of the year against the Rockets, when Collier was guarding him for about 15 minutes? Wouldn't Shaq have ripped him apart, since he can't defend? Also, I love how you guys tend to say Mo can't defend because of his rebounding numbers, and yet completely ignore Collier's collegiate rebounding numbers, which were tops in the ACC. Do you guys want to lump defense and rebounding together, or not? I'm fine with whatever, but don't combine it for some and not others. If you're going to bash players, at least be consistent.
No, just in every case. <font size="-5">(just taking the time out to disagree w/ the cat again)</font>
