I thought it was quite obvious that I was asking for players similar to Carr - that played for a bunch and were mediocre and then became good when the coaching changed. I didn't expect that people would use examples of guys who didn't fit what I thought was obvious. When people point out guys like Hasslebeck - who improved consistently from day 1 - or guys like Warner, who won an MVP in his first full season in the NFL and was in no way similar to Carr, I clarified. I'm sorry if you somehow thought I was looking for players who's careers were in no way similar to Carr's situation in order to make a comparison to Carr. I was quite clear in saying that experience and playing time was important and that coaching up a QB was overrated. What on earth would make you think I was looking for players that all improved with playing time as opposed to improved coaching? It seems to me you're being intentionally obtuse or are unable to read things in context.
Huh? Who said anything about Dallas? It might be *your* bias which is coloring things, not mine. The Cowboy teams of the early 90s were great. They dominated the NFC, which was the superior conference at the time, and then they kicked ass in the SuperBowl. Awesome teams. JJohnson was an awesome coach. The offensive scheme was tremendous. They had solid athletes at every position, and several elite Hall of Fame playmakers on offense. It's just that Troy Aikman wasn't one of them.
Aikman was a good qb who was surrounded with tremendous talent around him. Hey, i'll give a college comparison to troy aikman and that would be ken dorsey. andre johnson, jeremy shockey, reggie wayne, clinton portis, najeh davenport, frank gore, willis mcgahee, bryan mckinnie, and vernon carey.
major, give it a rest. really. as pointed out, you explicitly asked for "any" qb with no parameters whatsoever; "any" qb then became a BAD, NFL qb, which then became a FULL-TIME NFL qb that SUCKED. the criteria continued to change as more and more of your point was chipped away until, at last, you wanted us to name someone EXACTLY LIKE DAVID CARR, which, of course, is impossible. YOU WIN! you clarified because your initial contention was blown apart. guys who weren't good enough to start or make an nfl roster were EXACTLY the kind of player you were originally seeking. case in point of you fudging with your initial premise and trying to jam round pegs into square holes: hasselbeck was discounted because he "improved consistently" over his first three years as a full-time starter, and therefore didn't fit the new and improved criteria of initially sucking. but didn't carr improve consistently his first three years? why yes, he did, in every single category imaginable: qb rating: 63, 70, 83 yards per game (per 16): 162, 167 (keep in mind, he missed 4 games and played three others hurt [ie less than 10 attempts] in ’03), 220 TDs (per 16): 9, 12, 16 INTs (per 16): 15, 17, 14 completion %: 53%, 57%, 61% wins: 4, 5, 7 so once again, hasselbeck is excused because he "improved consistently" unlike carr who.... improved consistently. but no, really, keep trying to tell us what you REALLY meant... again, you didn't initially ask for players similar to carr; but rather "any" qb who had their careers positively impacted by coaching. in fact, here, again, is your EXACT quote: here are the following parameters missing from that statement: "david carr," "full-time," and "suck." you are very obviously (to everyone, i suppose, but you) asking for examples of coaches making a positive difference with "any" qb. not "any qb similar to david carr," not "any qb that once sucked, and by suck i mean based on my own criteria," or any other way you want to try and spin it. and btw, by conveniently looking for players "similar" to david carr's "situation," the list is decidedly short considering there's only been 5 expansion franchises since the 1969 merger and only the browns used their first-ever pick on a QB. and he couldn’t be coached! YOU WIN! yes, you were quite clear... in looking for "any" qbs that benefited from coaching; nowhere, initially, did you put ANY parameters on it.
You can say the same thing about any elite QB in NFL history. Joe Montana was surrounded by Jerry Rice, Roger Craig and John Taylor...John Elway was surrounded by Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe and Rod Smith. The guy quarterbacked his team to win three superbowls. Enough said.
uhm... dude, that's kind of our point - great QBs are usually surrounded by great players. carr has not been surrounded by great players. or even mediocre players. aikman was a fine QB, but he never carried that team. i would think even the most biased cowboys fan would admit that there were at least... four players on those teams (smith, irvin, allen and haley) more valuable than aikman and several players likely AS valuable (sanders, novaceck, woodson, off the top of my head).
Surrounded by great players, I could quarterback a team to win a few games in the regular season too. So the argument now is...Carr has underperformed because he is not surrounded by great players.
Remember that Elway got his team to the Super Bowl on more than one occasion with a lot less than Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe and Rod Smith. Elway is the greatest QB of all time, imo. Look...there's no numbers or anything that convince me that extending Carr was the right thing. I'm sorry. I'm sure I'll end up posting again about this subject...but in some way I'm removing myself from this discussion...because it's all opinion. You guys know what mine is. I know what you guys think, too. I'm not sure there's much else to add to the discussion.
I dont know why you all still think Carr is "playing good". I agree with with MadMax about Carr. i can't stand this thread anymore.
he may very well be, but the broncos' combined record in the five years prior to elway was 40-33, they were just six years removed from a SB appearence and they went 9-7 his rookie year with steve deberg attempting 215 passes. they didn't exactly suck before him. but agreed, he's one of the rare examples of great qbs not necessarily surrounded by great players (more by a very good team). favre is another. brady's one, too. but all three played for upper echelon coaches, which, of course, makes no difference, but i thought i'd at least mention it.
6 years is an eternity in football, ric. 6 years ago the st. louis rams and the titans were in the super bowl. the personnel on those teams has turned over almost entirely since that year. there's a reason the broncos had the #1 pick. as i've said...i personally have never seen a QB do more with less than John Elway.
BREAKING NEWS ESPN.com: "ESPN's Michael Smith is reporting that the Houston Texans have released Quarterback David Carr on suspicion of criminal drug charges. When asked about this incident, Carr responded 'I'm very suprised, I will be appealing these charges.' For the time being, I am told the backup quarterback Sage Rosenfels will start next Sunday against Jacksonville. I am also told that they have contacted Quincy Carter, former dallas Cowboys quarterback and Vinny Testaverde as possible replacements."
LOL, this coming from the same guy that was trolling...er, posting "should of drafted Reggie..." in every thread a few weeks ago... I wonder if he's finally changed his tune.
