There is a body-type concept (largely erroneous, imo) running rampant among NBA and sports fandom. I find the platonic center to be the most annoying of these requirements. I've seen people say-- at one time or other -- that the group of natural centers does not include just about every center in the NBA except Shaq. So, what is that makes a person a natural center? I'd like a rule we can apply. Is it height? Is it weight? Is it strength? Is it a low-post offense? Is it rebounding? What is it that makes O'Neal the only legit center in the business?
The "traditional center" supposedly never leaves the painted area, hanging around to score, rebound, block shots, etc...By that definition, Hakeem wouldn't be included, because he routinely canned 18-20 foot jumpers during his prime... The Hall of Famers, (Wilt, Kareem, Russel, Mikan) remained strictly in the 5-12 foot range with their shots, and only left the paint if their man went outside. Shaq is probably being compared to those guys... From what I've seen, though, the magic height of 7 feet seems to separate centers from offensive power forwards...Ever wonder why Hakeem is listed at 7 feet, though everyone mentions that he's barely 6-11 with shoes on? Then, you have these young guys like Duncan, Garnett, and Odom that can handle the ball like small forwards, face up, post up, shoot jumpers, bank stuff off the glass...the line gets really blurred... When it's all said and done, Shaq may just be the last of the great centers...
JV, I think it is too simplistic to stereotype the "5" position or a center. As skills, strength, conditioning etc. have evolved over time, it has impacted how teams array their players. And the average height is increasing every year. Also, I have always believed that standing reach, not height, is a better measure of a player....you don't rebound with the top of your head (or shouldn't!). Charley Barkley was a 4 or PF @ 6' 4 1/2." Other players are SF's@ 6' 11'. Go figure. It depends on the complement of players a team has, and the specific skills of each. For instance, this years' Rockets have a wealth of scorers and don't need their "center" to put up a lot of points: they need rebounding, defense and shot blocking. So someone with those skills can fill the bill-J. White, or Cato if some monumental "transformation" occurs. And matchups figure in a lot. Often a team's offensive 4 is a defensive 5. A few players come to mind that have blown the "traditional" center, or any other position, out of the water. Magic was 6' 9'' PG and dominated in a way no one had ever seen before; was he a prototypical PG? Absolutely not be his skills redefined the position. And it seems to me he played center in the NBA finals one year when Jabbar was out, and only scored 40+ points in their win. Bill Laimbeer at "center" was slow as hell, but was a thug, could hit the outside shot, and was perfect for the Pistons during their championship years. Wes Unseld was 6' 7" and was an incredible center with his strength, hands, outlet passes and rebounding skills. It appears that the best rebounders are instinctively smart about where to position themselves, tenacious, and are also "quick" jumpers (vs."high" jumper"). Those traits are a lot more important than height, weight etc. Forgive my rambling but you have surfaced a fascinating transformation that is occuring in professional basketball. And we're seeing it now within games when teams go "big" or play "small ball" to exploit certain situations or matchups. I think we will witness many permutations of lineups with this year's Rockets.....and it should be fun to watch.
Dallas Rocket: well said. The phenomenon you speak of is precisely the reason I ask this question in the first place. You have posters who say that Cato, Collier, Duncan, Mourning, Nazr, Ratliff, Jackson, White, etc., etc. are not natural centers so they don't want them playing at the 5 spot. There are a couple of guys who's centerness is never questioned: Shaq, Reeves and Bradley are three current centers who come to mind that are somehow beyond reproach. In my mind, however, you need to define what center is by what is out there, not by some platonic ideal of what a center should be. And it should be what is out there now, not what was out there 30 years ago. And, it should represent the median, not the leader of the pack (Shaq). If you took the starting and back-up centers from every team in the NBA, what would the median weight be? what would the median height be? I doubt it'd even be 7' tall. So what does it matter that Antonio Davis used to play PF when he was on Smits' team -- isn't he kicking a lot of people's butts as a center? So what if Mourning is 6'10" or less, doesn't being the best center in the EC mean anything to the definition of the position? I know it is silly to even be asking about all this. If Magic can play center and be successful, then what meaning do the positions have anyway? But, I want to know why Collier is 'really' a PF and why White and Duncan (who only plays PF because of Robinson) and Mourning are 'really' PFs. Does talent -- an ability to shoot from the outside -- really disqualify someone from being a center?
JV, I obviously agree with you. I think it is no more than a vestige of how players need to be introduced before games, or listed on some piece of paper. The "positions" by their names are artificial and, in and of themselves, mean absolutely nothing. It would be more realistic to simply introduce the 5 players who are starting, but it is "protocol" that we and the public has gotten accustomed to. Simply put, we now let the mix of players and their skills define the team's personality and style of play vs. forcing them into "lockstep" positions.
I completely agree. People constantly say they want a "natural" 5, but what is a natural 5? Jackson puts up great numbers at the 5, people consider him a PF. Same with LaFrentz. I hear people constantly rag on Mourning saying he is a PF. He has been one of the best centers in the NBA for years. There were people that didn't want Antonio Davis because he was a PF. Same with White. Exactly was is a true 5 and where can we find one? People want someone who can "bang with Shaq", that guy doesn't exist obviously. My feeling, if you play center, and produce well at center, then you're a center.
RoxMillenium, the fact is that Shaq has raised the bar for centers everywhere. Before the PF and C position were nearly interchangeable. OT used to play the 5 when Dream was on the bench. Basically there isn't a whole lot of difference between a four and a five- maybe a few inches and like 20 lbs.
Why should that be? One guy manages to combine height, muscle, and an ability to walk and chew gum at the same time and now 28 other teams have to be considered to be playing without a center? Shaq is a good center and a big center, but he still only plays 1/29th of the games in the NBA (or is it 2/29ths?).
While the "4" and "5" spots have become very interchangable(10 years ago your center was 7' feet tall and noone playing other positions could be taller), there are still some differences. For the most part, the center is usually the bigger one. The center has also become the one that is more of the rebounding/defensive specialist while the "4"s are the stars, mainly scoring. Some guys I consider true 5's:Bradley, Amaechi, Cato, Causwell, Curry, Dampier. Declerq, Diop, Divac, Dudley, Ewing, Feick, Foster, Garrett, Geiger, Haywood, Stephen Hunter, Ilgauskas, Marc Jackson, Ervin and Ken Johnson, Knight, Longley, MacCulloch, Magloire, McCoy, Mcllvane, Mihm, Miller, Mohommad, Montross, Moore, Mourning, Mutumbo, Nesterovic, Shaq, Dream, Kandi, Ostertag, Perdue, Perkins, Polynice, Pryzzabilla, Ratliff(Could do either spot), Reeves, Robinson, Rooks, Sabonis, Felton Spencer, Michael Stewart, Jahidi White, Kevin Willis, Woods, and Wright Note that they are in alphabetical order taken from ESPN. Some of those guys I would rather play at the four(White being among them), but could still effectively play the five. Playing today's NBA center position has alot to do with being able to guard your man. I think that the guys named can do so. The Elite Power Forwards(And some that aren't) like Duncan, Garnett, etc... can probably play center, but are more effective at the 3/4 with another guy playing the 5.
Maybe the people looking for the traditional center aren't seeing that the traditional center has changed... The big lumbering oaf in the middle that clogged up the paint and hung back to intimidate has changed into a fairly fleet-footed 7 footer than swoops in from everywhere to deny passes, block shots, and run the floor on the break. I remember watching Moses Malone run the court in his younger days. Mo was what? About 6'10" and 250? Yet compared to some of these guys playing in the paint today, he'd be a lumbering oaf.
Actually it goes deeper than that, I think. The evolution of the game especially over the last ten years has placed an increased emphasis on (1) ball control versus scoring, (2) playmaking versus shooting, (3) passing off to most advanatageous man versus taking first opportunity, (4) positional threats and statetgic matchups versus the standard offensive and defensive sets. This is also coupled with player's abilities being measured by a more broad spectrum of ability factors like - which positions he can effectively hold, and paradoxically which specific roles he can offer/play on a speciic team. It is not enough just to be a greeat talent, how a player fits into the mix,the scheme of things is given equal credence. There also is a heigthened awareness that some conditioning improvements (weightlifting versus light lifting - or - footwork excercises in lieu of sprints) will reap dividends especially with the long schedule. There is reported to be one team (the Tri State area -NY-NJ-Phil) that attempted to have Ballet and Free-form Dance instituted into it's conditioning program. (Without much enthusiasm or success I should mention.) Now take these seemingly "normal" growth patterns of the game and apply the league's philosophy that "we must make it more entertaining" with it's incumbent logic to change the rules everytime someone decides to fart ... and we basically have .... ...... a game being played today with different league rules, different marketing strategies, different measurements of "success", different game flow and markedly different athletic focus...... ...... That is why a 6'10 energetic center (Zo) can dominate a game against a 7'2" swatting praying mantis (Bradley) ..... or a 6'9 fast and athletic ball carrier (Odom) can play either PG or PF with equal aplomb. I think RT and CD have kept up with the progreesion of the game well enough. RT had been an early proponent of swing players at every position. OT and Mad Max, Robert Horry at the 3-4-5, Mario everywhere, Othella at the 4-5 and an old favorite ... Chucky Brown to name a few. RT continued that multi-position/no-standard-position attitude with Steve, Shandon and Cuttino, along with presumably Griffin, Taylor and Terrence Morris. Cheers.
Juan, although I agree that "He's not a true [name of position]" has become overused jargon, I think there IS a useful basis for the idea. The definition, IMO, is functional: A "true" or "natural" center, shooting guard, or whatever has the physical tools (height/strength, basically) to defend most other players at that position. If 75% of your opponents can shoot over you (or muscle their way into any spot they want) like you're not even there, you're not a "natural" at that position. Same thing if you're too slow to keep up with opponents at a position where most players are smaller (hence the dreaded "tweener," who has no natural position). To drag some other jargon into the fray, I find that when coaches/GMs or fans say "He's just a forward (or guard)," or "He can't guard Shaq, but who can?," that's usually code for "Yeah, we know he's a defensive liability, but we don't want to admit it."
