I think its a no brainer he is in the top 5...i think with his athleticism and play on both ends he is maybe the best ever....Many players, including Shaq and Barkley have said he is the best player ever to play behind Jordan.....and I woudl agree
To show that you used the same thing to argue against Wilt but for Shaq. The point was not about winning championship. It was about playing against inferior competition. You argued that Wilt's statistical achievement should be discounted because he did not play against good centers. Now when people pointed out the same thing about Shaq, that he did not play against good centers in his prime, you defended Shaq. All the good to great centers (Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, etc.) in Shaq's time are almost 10 years older than Shaq. You pointed out guys like Mutombo ("arguably the best defensive center of all time"). Yet, when arguing against Wilt, you pointed out guys like Chuck Taylor, conveniently omitting Russell, who also is arguably the best defensive center of all time. Also, you dismissed hypothetical matchups for Shaq and said that his numbers didn't lie. Yet you used (or implied) hypothetical matchups and said that Wilt couldn't have achieved the same numbers against stronger competition. I think Wilt won only two, after his statistics significantly dropped. Shaq, on the other hand, won his championships with Kobe at the peak of his career. That's probably it. You sounded like Wilt's stats didn't worth a dime because of his inferior opponents. I might have missed it, I don't remember you qualifying your arguments in that thread that you believed Wilt might well be the best center of all time. Anyways, I do think that Wilt and Shaq are quite similar. They both are overpowering monsters against his peers. They both didn't face too much competition in there position during their prime. And yes, neither of them know how to shoot free throws. Shaq claims that he is the MDE. I think there is at least one guy who can compete for that title. As for Hakeem versus Shaq, I am a homer. I still think Hakeem is a better player. If I were to pick between Hakeem in his prime and Shaq in his prime, I would definitely pick Hakeem. However, as someone pointed out, Hakeem's peak years were shorter than Shaq's.
Different eras = different standards to judge them by. So I agree I was inconsistent, but because I could be. Or Power forwards, or small forwards, or defenses, vis-a-vis his skill set. Shaq did play against good centers, and I'm not talking about just individual centers, I'm talking collectively about modern athletes, of modern size, playing modern level defense. , Chuck Taylor ain't a guy.......well he WAS a guy, and a Hall of Famer at that, and Wilt did compete against (and with) Taylor, but I'll let you figure out how and why.... If you think the talent, size, & athleticism in the frontcourt in 1999 is more comparable to 1962 than it was to 1995 - it's just not. I've discussed this ad nauseum, but again, as a whole, if you think going up against even second tier guys like Chris Kaman and Elton Brand, in a slower paced, more aggressive defensive era, is comparable to going up against Wayne Embry and Jack Twyman- it's just not. And I gurantee you that David Robinson and Tim Duncan present a better defensive matchup and would do a better job on Chamberlain than Bill Russell and 6-7 215 lb Tommy Heinshon, who were Wilt's nemeses at the time - it's just not. Shaq vs. Hakeem = same era = same criteria Wilt vs. Shaq =/different era = different criteria What hypothetical matchups did I dismiss? Shaq would dominate the midget front courts of 1962. I've said that numerous times. Wilt would also dominate most modern players - but not to the same extent he did in the early 60's. Again, I'm just repeating myself. They're not not worth a dime, but they do need to be discounted a bit, maybe a cent or two. That woudl be me who pointed that out, and I agree! Though reasonable minds can (and will) differ on that point.
(I didn't read all 9 pages...probably several have pointed this out...so just count it as an Amen) To me....the easy way to look at the Hakeem Vs Shaq comparison. Is there a way to stop him. In the first 3 and a half quarters they are equally unstoppable in thier wildly different ways. But if you need to stop Shaq down the stretch you just hammer him and try to make him beat you at the line. If your coach has to bench you...with regularity....at money time because you can't make an unguarded 15 foot shot. Then you might be great...but you can't be Hakeem level great.
concur what does personality have anything to do with being the best C of all time The ability to have longevity and productive career has more bearing, yet you ignored it and instead opted for personality. judging from the NBA Finals, it is not far-fetch to say that Dream schooled the 2nd year pro, Shaq, albeit an all-star in his own right
based on what ? it's just a figment of your imagination. such a baseless guarantee is worth less than a cold snot another figment of your imagination. Russell , not Heinshon, guarded Wilt
I see you're new to this discussion, seeking to hash, hache, and rehash and rehacher.... You need to go back and read the thread (and another one in the NBA dish) before you post things like that. One of the overall themes of this thread, and another thread in the NBA dish (where I think most of these threads belong, for various reasons) was that the ability of Wilt to physically overpower his opponents was enhanced by his tendency, in the early sixties, to match up against frontlines consisting of 6-8 220 lb Centers, and 6-7 210 lb power forwards (who doubled as backup C's), who didn't double team or contest shots the way they do today, in a much faster paced era with a lot more possessions and shots. Facing a front line of David Robinson and Tim Duncan - the closest thing to a nemesis that Shaq had, is far, far, more difficult for a player that uses size mismatches like wilt, than facing up against comparative midget front line of Russell and Heinsohn. That's a simple fact, it's simple math, and can't really be contested. Again, I will re-iterate for the 100th time that this doesn't mean WIlt couldn't be dominant in the modern game, but he would not average 50 ppg, not even close. THat was a function of early Wilt being ahead of his time and taking advantage of a league in transition.
IIRC, shaq averaged close to 30 ppg. Schooled him? Not even close. Game him a few pointers? perhaps, he definitely outplayed him, that's for sure. But nowhere near the way he dominated Robinson.
I know alot may have over looked it but peep this post i made in a thread here in the GARM in another hakeem thread. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=117567 and imo Hakeem is one of the top 5 along with Wilt, Kareem, and Bill Russel
I don't care if they rank Dream #5 or lower. I just know if we could pick a dream team, Hakeem would be my #1, and we'd beat everyone else.
My top 5 C's of all time are: 1. Chamberlain 2. Russell 3. Kareem 4. Hakeem 5. Shaq I really don't see how so many people can actually argue Hakeem should be above #4 though.
Hakeem not only is easily one of the top 5 centers of all time -- he quite possibly might be the best center of all time -- the evidence is as follows: Hakeem won back-to-back championships with the worst supporting cast of any HOFer/Top 50 player ever; Hakeem destroyed Jabaar (like Moses) and every other top center in the playoffs (when it really counts) -- always dominating the opposition so much that he overcame a superior supporting cast -- to wit -- defending Champion Lakers; Magic & Shaq that were supposed to sweep; Robinson the chump MVP; and Ewing in a spirited finals. The only two candidates he didn't dispatch in the top 5 weren't around -- and the game back then was a bunch of dunking -- Chamberlain and Russell -- and Jabaar showed how inferior the old-timers were as he and an over-the-hill Oscar Robertson manhandled the Lakers and Chamberlain in the Championships. There is one "MoneyBall"-type index that shows Hakeem not only is the best center ever -- but maybe the best player of alltime at any position -- and yes that includes Jordan. If steals, blocks, points, rebounds and assists are viewed as equally valuable and equilibrated on the same scale such that the all time leader has 50,000 pts. in each catergoy -- i.e., Jabaar in points scored and Stockton in assists would each get 50,000 points for that category -- someone with half of Stockton's assists gets 25,000 points in that category -- with 250,000 being the maximum possible score if the same player was the all-time leader in every major category -- Hakeem is the only player to ever play in the NBA to be in the top 10 in 4 of the 5 statistical categories -- and ends up the with the most points -- ergo he is the best player not just the best center to ever play the game.
1. Wilt 2. Dream 3. Kareem 4. Russell 5. Shaq Dream is Bill Russell without the supporting cast and with an offensive game.. Remember, there are only 2 people EVER to win MVP, Defensive MVP, Win a ring and be finals MVP all in 1 year...MJ and Dream...
Cowens, Unseld, Thurmond, Parish were centers- the rest were actually Power Forwards (in my opinion) Dream played against Jabbar, Ewing, Parish, D Robinson, O Neal, Moses Malone, Lambier - But if I was starting a team and my choice was Dream or Jabbar- Dream hands down. (the opinion of a total Rocket homer)
Actually, MJ never achieved this feat. He did win the Defensive Player of the Year in 87-88, but never those three in the same season. It should also be noted that he was MVP, DPOY, First team All-NBA, First team All Defense and Championship MVP in the same season. No-one has touched that since.
Hakeem is one of four players to achieve a quadruple-double, the others are: David Robinson Nate Thurmond Alvin Robertson NOT JORDAN!!
Hard to get 10 blocks when you are a 2 guard in the modern NBA. Plus blocked shots weren't a stat for years so there are probably other players who got triple doubles.
