Top Chinese diplomat tells US to 'shut up' on arms spending

No one that posts in a sports board is qualified to be an enemy of China, or any nation for that matter.

They way you feel may be felt exactly the same way by Chinese posters on this board for the opposite reasons, if you can realize that. All of them come here because they are either Rockets fans or Yao's fans (or both), why would anyone pick a fight in a message board that does not even use their native language?

The reason you don't see a lot of Chinese posters initiating posts criticising Chinese government is because this is a US sports board. If you read Chinese there are plenty of boards on the internet where Chinese nationals gives all kinds of criticism to the government (although these are only found outside of China, so score 1 against the PRC government).

Rest assured that no one here has a "cause", the very impression that Chinese people has a cause to improve the image on behalf of the government is a incredibly offensive bias, their cause is the same as you, express opinions where opposing opinions are presented.

 

You haven't spent much time in D&D, have you. Welcome!



Keep D&D Civil.

 

Thanks. On the contrary, I have been browsing clutch BBS since pre-Yao days regularly but never felt the urge to post much.

Onto the topic, regarding the diplomat's comments, I agree with some posters that it very well might be a calculated move, or at least it is a calculated move to put a person of his background into the position to make such a comment. Diplomacy is like chess matches, if it does not work I'm sure another move will be attempted.

Regarding China's military spending, it is well within reason for a country of its size. France even has a military spending higher than China.

Ragarding PRC past conflicts, whether you agree with each conflict or not, it has a consistent motivation of staying independent of foreign control. It was not with the intention of land expansion. If you argue Tibet, remember that Tibet was also part of ROC, I doubt the ROC goverment would do anything differently if it had the means. India and Vietnam conflicts should also be seen as in the context of the greater "little" cold war between China and USSR.

Regarding current military intentions, it is understandable that Taiwan is nervous about it, but it is far fetched to suggest that other nerghboring countries are now under military intimidation from China. Cuba has more reason to worry about US annexation than any of the neighboring countries of China worrying about the same from China.

Ragarding border disputes, by definition disputes are mutual, they can't be used to illustrate that one side of the dispute is more militarily aggressive and the other side is pure victim. Japan has border disputes with ROC, Korea and Russia, should that be used against the current Japanese government?

My post is not directed at Deckard but considering I might go another 4 years before posting anything I will get my money's worth.

 

I think you've touched upon the real issue going on in these threads - and you've really hit the nail on the hammer. We're not really trying to criticize, but rather discuss an alternative point of view...unfortunately like most zealots, there is no room for alternative points of view...

 

glad that you see the point that China has no more influence on NK than the USA has on Israel.

• yet, there many spinster---O'Reilly, Hannity, Savage, et al---would have the world to believe that China has wielded its influence on NK. There are posters that have been parroting these spin points.

cut the crap, dispense w the convenient generalization.

• not every one who present a POV different than yours, on this or other China-related thread, is a "China defender", as you have label / marginalize them. I was born an American---born, bred and educated in the USA---and will die as one. I can't read Chinese; I rely on Western news sources and publications---LATimes, SF Chronicles, NYT, WashPost, Economists, etc---to keep me abreast of current events.

Like all nation on earth, China has done bad deeds. There is a tendency to single-out China as the only one.

 

Deckard, I think you are generally right about this. Being on an English message board, lots of Chinese people, including myself, are subconsciously in a more pro-China mode, when China is in question. Not saying that's the way it should be, but rather understandable reaction. However, speaking for myself, I am much much more critical about some Chinese policies and current problems on Chinese message boards. I was called different anti-China names in so many occasions.

Chinese have lots of sour history, and Rape of Nanjing is to me, the worst one. Because it did happen in modern age, and a more civilized world. The wound is still open and fresh, one of the major reason was what this thread was originally about. The Japanese PM action is very offensive, and any support of that and downplaying of that are very offensive too. Chinese do go ballistic about that. Just like Jewish people are most sensitive to Holocaust.

One can always argue whether Chinese posters or Chinese in general are open-minded to critiques, but I don't think this is a good thread to post critiques towards China in other aspects, while it was clearly about offensive official visit to war criminals, at least it's very insensitive. What do you think? As for those, who refused to talk about Japanese war crimes and called out Chinese hypocrasies to protest, I do think some poster including me have a right to be offended, not to mention the superior tones in ridiculing Chinese protests or tell Chinese to shut up.

I remember vividly about those Holocaust and racial aspects related threads. If someone was posting offensive messages or insensitve about Jewish people sufferings in the past, you, FB and other more fair-minded and informed posters will be outraged and stand up to challenge those posts. I may not write anything, but I do applaud such action. However, in this very thread, both FB and you did post, you did pointed it out how Japanese PM's action was wrong, but my sentiment is, that you were more in a lurking mode, to watch bunch of emotional posters fighting against each other. There is no outrage over persistent derailing of this sensitive thread with argument over Chinese history. Some of the things were said to Jewish people and Holocaust, I believe you and some other senior memebers will be more vocal. In this thread, attached with your comments to Japan PM, there is always a "but...". It's not very pleasant to feel that tone.

Nanjing is still an open wound for Chinese, and it hurts if someone pours new salt in. 30 million (10.6 - 37 from different sources) lost lives, and 8 years of total destroying. Without the Sino-Japan war, Mao would probably not come into power, there would probably be no GLF and CR, no Taiwan nor Tibet issue. It affected China forever.

In a thread like killig dogs, I wouldn't even bother to comment. But in this very thread, despite so many times requests to discuss other Chinese related topics in other threads, everything possible related to Chinese past or present were still insistently brought up. Do you believe a gerneral feeling about whether those posters were intentionally downplaying Japan PM action and derailing this thread, is somewhat legit? Put yourself in the shoes of a Chinese, will you be deeply offended and very upset?

ps. I was talking about the shrine visit thread. I got it mixed up.

 

Japanese has the first class destroyers in the world, comparable to the best in US navy, and better than anyone else. And Japanese has a large number of them, about 4 times more than Chinese navy above that tonage. The air carriers other than the ones servicing in US navy nowadays don't serve much purpose. And frankly it won't be too difficult for Japanese to convert an amphibious ship to a carrier. And then Japan has a fleet of 18 state of art submarines. Other than that they are not nuclear and they don't carry ballistic missles, they are as good as it gets, and much better than the subs Chinese navy has.

If you think China is a military threat in the region, then you have to look at Japan the same way.

 

I won't comment on the other stuff, but this is very much a factual (though understandable) error. I don't fault you for not appreciating how difficult it is to make a functional aircraft carrier; you would really need to study the history of aircraft carriers and all the failures along the way to appreciate the difficulties. But if it really were that easy China would have a fleet of them of indigenous design, rather than having to buy a second-hand Russian model to study.

Building functional aircraft carriers is a very difficult engineering task and it generally needs to be a 'from the ground up' operation.

 

Deckerd, let me explain why I said some people "demonize" china or chinese people. I don't deny there are problems with China, there were mistakes in its past. One has to insane to think otherwise. Every government has certain history that it is not proud of. The thing is what you hear about in US is mostly concentrated on problems, not progress. And people blow things out of proportion.

I am sure some of the chinese posters here experienced Tiananmen Square in person and they seem to have cooler heads than most outsiders. The final judgement of it will come at some point and I think it is gonna be somewhere between the current government stand and what west media depicted.

Some people criticize on the family planning policy of China. On one hand, I understand 100% that forced abortions were terribly wrong. On the other hand, I see the implementation of the policy was the result of running out of other options. Had they not imposed that policy, the population would grow to such a level that many would die of femine or disease. Nature has a way to contain population, men or animals. I think it made sense to keep the situation in control instead of letting nature mother handle it the hard way. By no means I am saying it was a good choice or it didn't cause pain to many, but things could've been worse otherwise.

Someone claims chinese kill baby girls. How? That is demonizing a whole people. I know the nurses over there don't even tell you if it is a boy or a girl before you give birth. Are they saying Chinese kill the girls after they are born? Ridiculous. How come there are not 100 million more men than women in China, if that is true. As a matter of fact, the ratio of men to women in US is about 105:100. Go figure.

Then there is non-stop ranting of how much China is spending on military building. To use your word, it is paranoid. China still spend MUCH less than US, and much less than tiny Japan. Why pick on China? Oh because it is not democratic. Neither is Saudi, who also spend tons of $$$ on military. But Saudi is a buddy, China is a threat. Why? Let's not to forget american administrations didn't have problem making friends with Sadam and Mobutu who were already known to be bad guys.

Then there are wars between China and India, between Vietnam and China. Depending on who you want to believe, you will get different info on who attacks whom first. But there is one thing nobody can deny: China withdrew its troops immediately after. Japan occupied Korea and Taiwam for over half a century. Soviet union left its troop in eastern europ for 30+ years. China didn't linger on Indian or Vietnamese land when they could. Chinese even withdrew from North Korea after Korean war, while Americans are still staging troops there after 50+ years. Isn't it quite obvious that Chinese nowadays don't have the interest taking land from others? Not according to Pentagon or American politicians.

I hope you will see some valid points in my post. It largely depends on whether you choose to give it a try.

 

That model is being used as theme park, as I know. And frankly it is a long way from studying a rusty outdated model to making one. I do not believe China plans to build one any time soon, as it hardly has enough modern ships to support a carrier.

I hope you got more from the rest of my previous post. You get an idea of what Japanese navy is like, don't you?

People have been speculating it for over 10 years, and it have been proven nothing more than pure speculation.

I will just say it is easier for Japan to make a carrier, because it already has the technology to build super large vessels and super engines to power such vessels.

 

I think it was a great post. It's true that threads about a particular issue with China, like this one, or the "shrine," thread, tend to draw posts bringing up other issues that aren't relavent to the topic, but are critical of China. I can certainly see how that would be frustrating, and cause the train to "jump the tracks," as far as the topic goes, and could be seen as needless insulting posts from a China supporter, and sometimes are just that. However, there is also a tendency, and maybe it's brought about often by the derailing comments I just alluded to, but not always, to assault a poster who disagrees with the topic by bringing up a host of comments about actions America has taken in the past, some of which we aren't proud of, and some of which might be distorted to make the US look worse than is necessary, or relevant to the topic, when it is not. If people are paying attention, the US gets ripped here often and well everyday by American posters. It's not like we need the "help," but go for it!

A very good post that I'm glad to see. You get kudos from me for spelling out your thoughts, rather that emtionally talking about "Japs," for example, which is considered a racial insult in this country, although it was freely used during WWII here, both in films and in day to day use talking about the war, and certainly well into the '50's, when kids used it "playing," at WWII. You know, the good guys and the bad guys. BTW, in those scenarios, one of the good guys were the Chinese.

I'm old enough to be one of those kids. When my father, a liberal professor, caught me doing it, he told me to cut it out, although he was in some bloody action in the Pacific, killing and wounding many Japanese in the process, something he didn't tell me then, when it would have been a huge deal to my friends, but about a year before he died, decades later. Life is a strange and eventful journey, without a doubt. Just when you think you know pretty much all there is to know about someone, you can find that you really know nothing.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

War is an ugly thing. That is why we should all take it seriously, face it honestly, forgive but not forget. That is why we should not turn a bline eye to what is happening to Japan.

 

those numbers are flat out wrong. iran doesn't spend that much. at least not according to the CIA.

link

Rank

Country

Military expenditures - dollar figure

Date of Information
1
United States $ 518,100,000,000 2005 est.
2
China $ 81,470,000,000 2005 est.
3
France $ 45,000,000,000 2005
4
Japan $ 44,310,000,000 2005 est.
5
United Kingdom $ 42,836,500,000 2005 est.
6
Germany $ 35,063,000,000 2003
7
Italy $ 28,182,800,000 2003
8
Korea, South $ 21,050,000,000 2005 est.
9
India $ 19,040,000,000 2005 est.
10
Saudi Arabia $ 18,000,000,000 2005 est.
11
Australia $ 17,840,000,000 2005 est.
12
Turkey $ 12,155,000,000 2003
13
Brazil $ 9,933,000,000 2005 est.
14
Spain $ 9,906,500,000 2003
15
Canada $ 9,801,700,000 2003
16
Israel $ 9,444,000,000 2005 est.
17
Netherlands $ 9,408,000,000 2004
18
Taiwan $ 7,923,000,000 2005 est.
19
Mexico $ 6,062,000,000 2005 est.
20
Greece $ 5,890,000,000 2004
21
Sweden $ 5,501,000,000 2005 est.
22
Korea, North $ 5,000,000,000 FY02
23
Singapore $ 4,470,000,000 NA
24
Argentina $ 4,300,000,000 NA
25
Iran $ 4,300,000,000 2003 est.
26
Pakistan $ 4,253,000,000 2005 est.

 

CIA also believed that Sadam had WMD. Since Bush took office, the intelligence branch has been simply a tool of the administration. The intel it provides is based on needs, not facts.

 

You are right. Since the CIA was wrong once, it should never be trusted again. (Actually the CIA questioned the existence of WMD's in Iraq but who cares?). So anytime any source of info is incorrect - it must mean the source is incorrect for everything.

Since everything has been wrong at least once, therefore all sources of information are incorrect.

Therefore, everything is a lie. So we can't believe in anything.

Well, doesn't that simplify things a lot now?

 

This is a good post in that it leads us to think about many of China-related posts.

Where should I start, Deckard? Let me begin by applauding you for speaking out in the Japan's shrine visit thread.

Now about the "non-stop China defenders". Maybe I am among the one you refer to, maybe I'm not. Personally I don't care. I'm interested in much deeper questions.

First, why shouldn't someone defend China if he/she feels like to, and defend it with facts and logic? The way it's depicted here, it's as if defending China is some bad thing to do. If you think someone is unduely "going ballistic" over criticism, or wrongfully lable others as China's Enemy, go after him. I'd love to see you being more specific about those incidents by the way, especially if I am somehow responsible for that. Why cop out with "china defender" lable? It doesn't promote discussion. I don't think Chinese posters here are more vocal than republicans or democrats here. So why the need of this?

Secondly, does anyone pause to think why there's "non-stop China defender"? Why's there such a need? I mean seriously, look at the Japaense shrine thread and now this one (the one I originally don't want to comment on). Why is it anything remotely related to China, it's always Tibet, Taiwan, india-China, India-Vietnam, GLF, Mao, CR, one-child policy, etc etc, running full circle? Which thread about China doesn't get derailed? Many of the accusations are armed with biased books or articles, half-baked truth etc. You want meaningful discussion? How can we get to the meaningful discussion when American posters can't get past talking points about Tibet, GLF etc, many of which has been discussed ad nausem? If the American posters are justified in raising these issues again and again with anything remotely related China, then why shouldn't the other side argue with logic, amand with facts? And why is it always Chinese posters being brainwashed? Even though these voices come from different faction of chinese/ethnic Chinese?

Now I'm not saying there aren't cases Chinese poster(s) overstate(s) the issue, but why can't that be dealt with case-by-case as if logical thinkers aren't able to?

Let's not be mistaken, this is an American BBS. By that, I mean, first of all, most of Chinese posters who venture here are actually highly educated, not just by Chinese education, but also by western education. They've seen China, they've seen the US. Many even live here. I imagine they knows more about both US and China more than most of the American posters here. Do you spend a second to think, if those posters are defending some of China's positions in unison, maybe there are some western bias in these accusations?

By that, secondly, I mean how can minority posters here "gang up on" American posters? I mean, how many posters here actually know the inner working of China's domestic issues as they know American politics? Deckard, I've seen you raise the question that why Chinese posters isn't as critical as American posters. I wish you can go to some Chinese BBS and communicate, even if in basic terms, with Chinese there. You'll soon find out that Chinese are as critical as Americans here of their government, if not more. Complains about government are allowed. Unless you talk about plans to organize the anti-government political movement, you won't get any trouble. Now imaging you try to have a discussion of how China and US can coordinate on NK issue, and someone posts some accusation of USA with half-truth from China's anti-US propaganda in the 70s mixed in. And these same issues pops again and again with the same rhetoric whatever you want to discuss. Now try to be an "American defender" there. Yes, that's how I feel about some of these "china thread".

By this being an American bbs, I mean, thirdly, there's intrinsic China-bias here. Let's not kid ourselves there is not. By China-bias, I don't mean simply China-bashing by some here. It's more pronounced in silence, in the words chosen not to be said. I've said in shrine thread that if there's more merit in Lil's and NY's argument, I expect a lot more posters jump in there. I was proven right. I've seen posters casually jumping in when there's some criticism toward China, but I've rarely seen non-Chinese speaking up on the real issue (and I applaud you for doing that). Maybe that's why there's impresson of Chinese posters "ganging up" - not mentioning many of us are of totally different background. Another case in point, When Lil speak of Chinese as "ethno-centric lunatics", I don't see anything stand up and admonish him - and I've seen you admonish other posters for far less offenses. In fact, many posters lable Lil as anti-semite when he speak of far less offensives about Jews. Yet, it's complete silence when comes to Chinese. (Btw, my calling on your name about Otto's picture was intensional ) You can say such silence is from fear of being hammered over the head with constant, heavy-handed Chinese nationalism. I highly doubt it. How can nationalism hit you if you argue rationally, to the point, and without bias? I'd love to see specifics if there are.

So, yes, some of us to defend China quite a bit there, more so than we'd like to, and it's seemingly non-stop because after 20 pages we can't even get to the bottom of the issue. But I do feel if one truly wants to have a discussion rather than bashing, posters should face up and respect more of fact and get pass rhetorics, communist China or imperialist America.

Oh, back to discussions in this thread, someone asked earlier about the self-criticism on Hu's policies. I know little about Hu's doctrines, but now I think about it, I do feel China should do more and voice up more on international issues, rather than forfeit her UN vote like they ususally do. And yes, that's includes NK issue.

 

I thought about responding to this post of yours the other day, but due to various reasons I wasn't able to, and since it was buried deep in the thread, I didn't try to open it up again.

That, however, doesn't mean I have no strong opinion about it. There are several things that really bother me about your posts lately, but let me mainly focus on what's most relevant in this thread.

First, you always seem to be eager to show off your knowledge in military subject. Are you a professional military analyst by training? Or is it just your personal hobby to study military stuff? Please feel free not to respond if you think I am intrusive to your personal background. The reason I ask is what qualifies you to be more expert than others, for instance those published (sort of) articles on the internet.

Second, the first part of the article in your post #20 only mentioned $$ figures in the late '80 to early '90. It doesn't even extrapolate these $$ amounts to the current state. On the contrary, it implies in the present tense that Japan pays less to the U.S.' military support, suggesting more budget has been allocated to beefing up its own defense system.

Third, the second part of the article merely mentions "some estimates." As I said, it is neither verified nor verifiable. The author only presents what he read or what he heard, more like hearsay than rigorous fool-proof in my opinion. However, even if it is true, it doesn't necessarily mean all other facets/components of Japanese defense system are as expensive as the extreme example illustrated. Thus one instance alone can hardly prove the cost of running entire system is as expensive as you want us to believe.

Fourth, you are keen to provide some sort of ship to ship comparison. While I agree there are merits in doing so, this is by no mean the ultimate criterion to measure the capabilities of a navy as a whole. It's very much like in NBA, where you can have the sharpest shooter, the toughest defender and rebounder, the most agile slasher and cutter, the tallest center, the most ferocious dunker in the game, each by his own doesn't win you a championship. Even if you put them together in one team, without proper preparation, enough practicing, good game plans, decent chemistry among players, etc, it won't won you championship either. Not to mention modern maritime battles, like the NBA, are never fought in cowboy one on one style. So in short, I am not particularly interested in seeing a bunch of stats that are mostly out of context.

Fifth, and this is quite annoying to me. You basically accused real_egal falsified the claim and made up stuff without first asking for his reference. Even after I provided you with a link, which stated in black and white that "the JMSDF (Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force) is arguably the second-best navy in the Pacific, trailing only the United States Navy," and real_egal explained where he got the same idea, you still refused to acknowledge your rush to judgement is baseless. You may disagree, partially or wholly, the article I provide. But it's still your personal opinion, which IMO is no less or more valid that what we read on the internet. At best you can only say the content in that article is misrepresenting/misleading, but in no way you should say real_egal made it up. Again note the article was not put up there online to help the pro-China viewers. Maybe I was a little loose with my assertion that "you had absolutely no proof," which as some legalistic sounding statement is not the best way to illustrate my feeling, but I do want to say your posts before and after didn't seem to warrant my time to debate further on this issue. As far as I saw, all you were interested was to play semantic games. I mean, c'mon, who's being obfuscating here?

Now that I have more time and I am more willing to settle differences. I am looking forward to your explanation.

 

I make a living (sort of) selling military antiques. This in no way provides me with any sort of expertise. I do, however, have to read quite a bit in order to prepared which means have existing opinions on many subjects which come up for which others might not have a pre-existing interest.

You are quick to dismiss any sort of qualitative analysis but do not provide any sort of alternatitive. What criteria would you use or are we only supposed to rely on nebulous ill defined quotes from "analysts".

His statement was that Japan had the second best navy in the world which was and still is a laughable claim.

 

In other words...

There was a mad, mad dog called MiliJapa that was hunt down and killed by a group of hunters. One of the hunters raised it's little son, ModernJapa, the tamed descendant that is a milestone of successful domestication under civilizing training arranged by the hunter Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam taught him values, taught him peace and love, respect and responsibility.

Sam is confident that after half a century of domestication ModernJapa has now become the faithful and peaceful watchdog of him. Always nodding his head, rubbing Uncle Sam's legs and be at service. When Uncle Sam tells him to go west, he doesn't go east. When Uncle Sam tells him to bite, he doesn't howl. For return of ModernJapa's service and a lack of alert, Uncle Sam is loosening the leash more and more, and sometimes lets him off the leash into the wild.

Now ModernJapa is eating a lot growing sharp teeth and muscles, which he likes to flex in the morning. In his free time he always goes into the wild, gazing longingly at the gigantic frame of its father MiliJapa.The other hunters felt a sense of alarm when they saw the dead body of MiliJapa is decorated and honored by ModernJapa, but Uncle Sam laughs it off by saying ModernJapa is already domesticated and civilized, knows peace and love, embraces respect and responsibility, also, his teeth are too small to bite anyone. Behind the door Uncle Sam knows there's something wrong, but is reluctant to punish the already strong ModernJapa, fearing the loss of his service, which is useful in settling conflicts of interests between him and other hunters, and is reluctant to admit his domestication and civilizing courses failed. So the other hunters and Uncle Sam go on their mud slinging routine, while ModernJapa is growing stronger under their eyes, and goes on its pilgrimage to a shrine he built for MiliJapa everyday.

To be continued...

 

Panda, you crazy son of a gun...funny post!