one more thought...sorry: the Christianity many of you describe and the faith I know seem entirely different to me. I do not believe I'm a Christian in the sense it's often defined here. I'm comfortable with Jesus Freak....it's a bit more light-hearted anyway!
MadMax, I'm not coming after you or something - and I certainly hope you don't see it that way. But I really don't get what you mean by your faith being experiential rather than intellect-based? I can understand people experiencing the good feelings of love, peace and selflessness, then attributing them to the moral message imparted in the Bible. I can understand some of them getting a "divine feeling" that leaves them convinced of a greater power. And I have no doubt that experience strengthens your faith. My question is, how can it possibly be the starting point of a belief in a story? Unless you experienced the events of that story in a vision, without prior knowledge of it? (That would be seriously intense, dude and very convincing even to me)
ok...but it's in the stuff that wasn't included in the Bible!!! gasp!!! EVEN IN NICODEMUS!!!! THE HORROR!!!!! (i'm kidding, dada!)
Yes, I know ! However, IMHO, I think they were talking about visions or dreams, which were common back in those times - instead of an actual resurrection. Again, interpetation of the meaning of the word is as important as the word itself. Just as a women during that time period could be considered a Virgin until she gave birth to a son. Bet ya didn't know that, tough guy !! DD
good question...and no, i don't see you as coming after me. experential in the sense that i feel myself different. i find i'm not who i was. that things that would otherwise attract me are dying. that attempting to live the life Christ called me to in the Sermon on the Mount, for example, leads to peace. leads to better relationships. that meeting hate with love actually "works." that forgiving instead of holding grudges actually "works." that being honest in prayer and without prayer to God is intensely healthy. that God is actually speaking to me through scripture and circumstance...in ways that are ridiculous and remarkable. look i know all that sounds weird. i have friends and family who think i'm a bit freaky. but i also become the first one they call when they have a problem. not because of me...but because of God. i don't mean that as a pat on my back. the old part of me that is selfish and worldly is still there and still makes an appearance. so i'm not saying this to give credit to me. the credit is God's. i've been transformed. and i've seen dramatic transformation in other people. honestly, the beauty of that overwhelms me. you can read the Bible and study it philosophically or historically. or you can attempt to engage the God it points to. i'm trying, Ringo....i'm trying real hard!
absolutely knew that!!! the word we're translating as virgin means young maiden. unmarried. in that context, it usually meant virgin in the way we understand it, particularly since the penalty was death. did you know the first century church didn't focus on the resurrection that much?? because there were so many other faiths that had a "resurrected god" it was not met in the Greek/Roman world with much interest. so instead they focused on intense self-less love. love of community...love of each other. creating the church described in Acts 2: 42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
you'll like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmRRsthamaw&mode=related&search= did you know the human head weighs eight pounds?
See the thing is, all of this functions perfectly without having to believe Jesus was God. It proves nothing but the fact that He was right about some stuff. It doesn't mean He was God. It doesn't even mean He was right about all stuff - such as claiming to be God. Many other people have come to similar truths through other religions or even by themselves. But, as I always say.. whatever works for you I would rather give you credit, honestly Whoo, getting a little mushy in here
here's the deal...i can't "PROVE" that to you the way I prove up a breach of contract in court. sorry. i wish i could. in that sense it is, as i say, experential. and absolutely...truth isn't exclusive to the Hebrew people. God didn't abandon all of man just to deal with the Hebrews, exclusively. there are shreds of truth all throughout. i have atheist and agnostic friends who love dearly their children...they would sacrifice their lives for them. i find truth and beauty in that. i claim that truth is God's, whether my friends and i agree on who God is or not.
Are you saying that there salvation outside the church/Jesus? Do yo think Christianity/Jesus taps into universal truth or is Christianity/Jesus exclusively the truth?
i don't know what mercies God has in store for people. i know that Christ is my salvation. i know i don't want to be without God. i believe Jesus is exactly who he claims to be in the Gospel. read the first few chapters of Romans. here's part of it: Romans 2: 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
If the new law is the way of Jesus, then I think people can know the way of Jesus without knowing the name Jesus.
i think that is certainly something worth considering. there are various times in the Bible where people are credited with faith...people who didn't have a background where they would understand God or Christ in a theological/doctrinal sense. we start with Melchizedek in Genesis....and then you have Roman soldiers and others in the NT who were "credited with faith." i don't know what it means, exactly.
Well, it is a law that has filial piety down at #5 and respect for human life down at #6 You're asking too much from someone who needs the TOP FOUR slots to guarantee total obedience, don't you think? Just taking the piss. But seriously, I'll pass
Yes, sir.. whut? My point (and I wasn't really trying to make one) is that the "way of Jesus" is as much about worshipping Him as it is about morals.. this is evident from the ordering of the Commandments, among other things, so I brought that up. And you can't worship an entity without knowing its name
