Bush Tried to Get Israel to Attack Syria in Latest War

Forgive me, but I hardly think that Katyusha rockets are "some of the most high tech missiles" in Iran's advanced missile program; they are Soviet-era technology. Iran and Syria are supplying Hezbollah with their 'out-of-date' missiles.

 

They've been around a while. My father subscribed when I was kid.

 

Technically they aren't even missles, but rather rockets because they have no type of guidance system. They are just big metal fireworks with a bomb on top.

 

Yea, another war! I was getting tired of all our soldiers dying in Iraq.

 

They have a history of pretty decent foreign coverage, and have certainly been around a very long time. I don't recall them being involved in any dispute as to their integrity and honesty, regarding their reporting. Maybe I missed it.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

It's easy to see why your still a rook.

Idiot.

 

In another thread, I posted an article that referenced the Jerusalem Post and the Haaretz, which seems to confirm the CSM's claims in this article.

All three sources are credible enough to believe this story, and the CSM is certainly a credible source, their foreign affairs coverage is pretty solid and reputable.

 

Makes you pretty disgusted at who we have at the highest levels of our government, doesn't it. Are they so full of hubris that after the ****-up of Iraq, they still believe in these "easy" fantasies? I just hope we don't get into another war until Bush, Cheney, and their boot-lickers leave office. The incompetence is breathtaking.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

Katyusha rockets are un-guided, which are 'out-of-date'. But some of their weapons like anti-tank missles are quite advanced. They have knocked out multiple Israeli tanks, considered to be one of the better armors in the world.

Israelis were meeting heavy resistance for a reason, the Hezbollah weren’t just using low-tech weapons.

 

Very true. The Israelis have designed their tanks to have a focus on crew survivability, with every Merkava main battle tank having a rear door, something rather unique. The Israelis have always attempted to protect their people in combat, because they operate with relatively small numbers, for a country with a military the size of Israel's.

This is from Wikipedia, not the best source, but the article seemed pretty accurate:

Like any other tank, the Merkava is vulnerable to remotely operated landmines. During the Al-Aqsa Intifada, three Merkava tanks were destroyed by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, on February 14, 2002, March 14, 2002 and February 16, 2003. A total of 10 Israeli soldiers, who were inside the tanks, were killed in these incidents. A number of Merkavas were also damaged, such as on March 19, 2004, in which a tank overturned after being hit by a landmine, injuring 2 soldiers.

During the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict a number of Merkava tanks were destroyed and damaged and crew injured and/or killed, primarily by the Russian-made Metis-M anti-tank missile.[2] In addition to missiles, improvised
explosive devices proved to be a deadly threat.

As of 2005, some 5000 workers are directly employed in Merkava production, with another 5000 employed indirectly, in 220 Israeli firms. In 2005, exports of Merkava-related sub-systems amounted to US $200 million (the tank itself was not exported). The Israel Manufacturers Association expects that by 2007 the number of Merkava production employees will increase by 2000 and exports will amount to US $400 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava

It's amazing, when you think about it, that a country the size of Israel is manufactoring it's own main battle tank, and a damned good one. That at least a dozen (if I remember right) have been destroyed in South Lebanon is a testament to the sophisticated weapons Hezbollah obtained from Iran and Syria, with Russia being a main supplier to those two countries. I've heard nothing about Israeli casualties in the tanks destroyed. That would be interesting to know, given the lengths they've gone to protect crews.



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US involved in planning Israel's operations in Lebanon

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060813/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictus_060813183058

NEW YORK (AFP) - The US government was closely involved in planning Israel's military operations against Lebanon's Hezbollah militia even before the July 12 kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, a US magazine reported.

Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh writes in The New Yorker magazine that President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were convinced that a successful Israeli bombing campaign against Hezbollah could ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prototype for a potential US preemptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations.

Citing an unnamed Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of the Israeli and US governments, Hersh said Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah -- and shared it with Bush administration officials -- well before the July 12 kidnappings.

"When they grabbed the soldiers in early July, that was then a pretext" for Israel's assault on Hezbollah, Hersh said Sunday on CNN television.

"We (the US) worked closely with them (Israel) months before, not necessarily ... knowing when it was going to happen, but when there was an incident they will take advantage of the incident, what I call a fortunate timing'," Hersh said.

"Nobody is suggesting that Israel wouldn't have done what it did without the Americans," he added.

Hezbollah responded to Israel's attacks by firing missiles into Israel to escalate the month-long conflict that killed some 1,200 people on both sides.

A UN-organized cessation of hostilities planned for Monday, it was hoped, could bring an end to the fighting.

In the article Hersh suggests the White House had several reasons for supporting an Israeli bombing campaign in Lebanon.

If Washington wanted to pursue a military attack against Iran over its nuclear program, the United States had to get rid of the weapons Hezbollah could use in a potential retaliation against Israel, he writes.

Citing a US government consultant with close ties to Israel, Hersh also reports that before the Hezbollah kidnappings, several Israeli officials visited Washington "to get a green light" for a bombing operation following a Hezbollah provocation, and also "to find out how much the United States would bear".

"The Israelis told us it would be a cheap war with many benefits," the magazine quotes the consultant as saying. "Why oppose it? We'll be able to hunt down and bomb missiles, tunnels, and bunkers from the air. It would be a demo for Iran."

US government officials have denied the charges, but Hersh defended his piece Sunday saying he had strong sources for the article which was thoroughly vetted by New Yorker editors.

"This White House will find a way to view what happened with the Israelis against Hezbollah as a victory, and they'll find a way to see it as a positive for any planning that is going towards Iran," he told CNN.

In the magazine Hersh writes that a former senior intelligence official said some officers serving with the Joint Chiefs of Staff -- a council of the president's top military advisors -- remain concerned that the administration will have a far more positive assessment of the air campaign than they should.

"There is no way that (Defense Secretary Donald) Rumsfeld and Cheney will draw the right conclusion about this," Hersh quotes the former official as saying.

"When the smoke clears, they'll say it was a success, and they'll draw reinforcement for their plan to attack Iran."

 

I am more and more ashamed of this administration even when I thought I had reached my limit, or the administration reached their limit. Although it makes sense, the screwed up idea that bombing a nation and killing its civilians will make them turn on the group that is fighting the bombers, is similar to the idiotic thinking that they tried to use in Iraq, unsuccessfully. It does have their fingerprints on it.

 

They weren't using high-tech weaponry, either. They just figured out how to use small-scale and mobile weapons in a highly effective manner. Some military experts have been stunned by Hezbollah's military genius, even the Israelis admitted to it.

 

The fact that it hasn't worked isn't what I find concerning. What I do find concerning is that they seem to be determined to repeat the same 'mistake' over and over again, almost as if they live in a parallel reality.

That's exactly why, as I have said in the past, I wouldn't doubt their determination to start a war with Iran or Syria before Bush's term is up. Add that to the fact that this administration is taking advice from 'apocalypse now' religious leaders, and you have a frightening picture of the future.

 

Don't give them more credit than they deserve, tiger. They are motivated, organized, well trained and well led, and against Israel's armor, they are using modern anti-tank weapons, supplied by Iran and/or Syria, and supplied to those countries by Russia.



The METIS-M ATGM system is designed to defeat modern armoured targets with improved protection, including those equipped with explosive reactive armour, as well as fortifications and weapon emplacements, and other pinpoint targets.

The system employs missiles with warheads of two types. The first is a tandem hollow-charge warhead designed to destroy modern and future tanks with reactive armour. The second is a fuel-air explosive warhead. It provides blast and incendiary effects comparable to those of large calibre artillery rounds and is capable of destroying light armoured vehicles, fortifications and small-size targets. The METIS-M missile is roll-stabilized in flight and the tracking flare is mounted eccentrically so that it traces a circle as the missile rolls.

The IR tracking system derives deviation from the centre of this circle and steering sense from the movement of the flare. The missile is ejected from its launch container by a booster motor stage, then the main rocket motor ignites. This allows the weapon to be fired from a confined space, though a clear area of at least 2 m behind the launch tube is necessary.

The system is designed to defeat armored targets, fortifications and weapon emplacements.
The system components: launcher, containerized missiles, thermal sight and test equipment for the launcher and thermal sight.
The missiles are fitted with warheads of two types: a tandem HEAT warhead and a thermobaric warhead possessing the high-explosive and incendiary effect of the 155mm artillery projectile.
The system allows delivery of fire in the prone position from organized and deployed sites, firing from the standing foxhole position as well from the shoulder, and carrying the ATGM system in packs, with pack No. 1 containing the launcher and missile in the firing attitude and pack No. 2 accommodating two Metis-M missiles.
Organizational and field maintenance of the ATGM system is carried out using test equipment.
To train operators, use is made of field and computeraided trainers.

http://warfare.ru/?lang=&linkid=1663&catid=261

They are not "geniuses." They've studied the successes of the Chechens in the former Soviet Union, and the Iraqi insurgents. I have no doubt that Hezbollah has highly trained Iranian military people helping them, and perhaps some Syrians, but I would be doubtful of that. Syria wants no part of Israel, who's vaunted military machine is designed to turn them into chopped liver in short order. Iran feels that they are far enough away, with Iraq in chaos, and the US bogged down there, to have Hezbollah occupy Israel in South Lebanon, where they are busy damaging them, and keeping them from attacking Iran. And I think what Hezbollah is doing to Lebanon is cold blooded and calculated. They are coming out with clipboards, telling those who's homes and businesses were destroyed, that Hezbollah will help them rebuild. Very crafty. They brought Israel down on those people, in my opinion, at the request of Iran, and now they will pretend to be the saviors of the same innocent people, with Iran's oil money, in it's billions.

Very clever. Iran's theocracy must be gleeful.



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I understand what you're saying, that's why I said their weaponry was mostly primitive rockets and light-weight mobile weapons. They still have nothing on Israeli tanks and F-16s, let's not pretend that there is a 'balance' here.

They are well-armed for a militant group, but still can't compare to what the Israelis have at their disposal.

But you're right, the anti-tank weapons are highly effective, they were used effectively by the Egyptians in the '73 war as well.

So they're 'students of the game'...and I wasn't the one who praised Hezbollah's fighting abilities, it was Israeli military officials and other military experts who did. Let's not forget that they have been preparing for this eventual 'battle' for years, so that certainly played a big factor.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but starting a war with Iran or Syria goes far beyond Israel's incursion into Lebanon. Maybe I'm giving this administration too much credit, but I sincerely doubt they want to attack Syria or Iran. With 100,000+ troops vulnerable in the soggy bog in Iraq, even an idiot can figure out our capability to go after Syria and Iran now is almost nil.

 

You're right, thanks for the correction.

 

Iran has Supplied Hezbollah with Zelzal 1 and Zelzal 2( 300 KM range) missiles. not to mention the C-802 that took - out AN ISREALIE GUNBOAT. ZELZAL CAN HIT TELAVIV WITHOUT A PROBLEM. iran has also supplied hezbollah with unmaned UAV drones which can be used with devestating effect. load it up with explosives and you have a radar guided bomb.

The C-802 is a turbojet - powerd anti- ship missile and has a range of 120 KM (80 miles) and it packs around 450 pounds of explosives. iran has Suplied Hezbollah with Ianian Built SAM. there a ground to air anti Aircraft missile. hezbollah is not a toy tiger. there arsenal is stacked.