Could Lebanon Have Controlled Hezbollah Before the War?

Then how about some info from Lebanon about Syrian Terrorism

 

I think all of the options are partially true, though none is totally accurate. A sizable minority at least wants Hizballah to be in the country. Certainly there are elements of the Lebanese government that welcome the presence of Hizballah, not the least of which are the Hizballah representatives in said government. Without help the government of Lebanon is unlikely to be able to root out Hizballah. There are foreign powers that do not want Hizballah to be removed from Lebenon, and certainly do not want Lebenon to have good relations with Israel and the United States (hint, a nearby Islamic Republic that is an involuntary member of the inaugural class of the Axis of Evil, for one). The combination of those factors lead to Hizballah having free reign in southern Lebanon, which they chose to use to instigate conflict with Israel.

EDIT: I voted other since this was not a multi-option poll.

 

I would be curious how many of the people support the offensive military arm of Hezbollah vs the defensive side or the social services side. Like Hamas in the Palestinian situation, they have integrated themselves well in other areas of life. I have some friends who lived in Lebanon several years ago and they universally say Hezbollah is the biggest problem their country faces. But they aren't from the south, so I don't know how support varies.

 

Everyone seems to just have accepted the explanation the Lebanese gov did not have the ability to remove hezboolah from the border, it may still be true, but the official response to the UN was that Lebanon refused until there was a broader peace w/ Israel in the ME.

 

For some reason, I was thinking about our Drug War in Colombia while reading this...

 

I voted 'other' because the relationship of Hezbollah to the Lebanese government and Lebanese society is very complicated. Bottomline there is no way that Lebanon could disarm Hezbollah due to Hezbollah's superior military might, that sizable portion of Lebanon's population support Hezbollah and that Hezbollah is essentially the defacto Lebanese military guarding Lebanon's southern border from a country that had previously occupied Lebanon.

Its responses like this that frustrate me regarding what's happnening to Lebanon. Reading posts here of people who basically say that Lebanon is getting what they deserve for not dealing with Hezbollah are suffering from the same short term memory loss that seems to afflict most people. Just in case people forgot about 18 months ago there was great display of people power in Lebanon as more than a million Lebanese turned out peacefully to stand up for democracy and drive out Syria and place Lebanon firmly on a path of moderation, economic development and westernization. Many of the same people now who are saying that Lebanon deserves it because they harbored terrorists and were stooges of Iran and Syria were cheering the Lebanese Cedar Revolution not that long ago.

What I find more frustrating is that many of these are the same people who bring up in response to ongoing violence Iraq that a lot of time is needed to build a peaceful democracy. So here we have the same people dismissing ongoing violence in Iraq as bumps in the road towards democracy and stability practically cheering on the destruction of a country that had a peaceful revolution to put it on the road to democracy because they didn't instantly disarm the strongest militia in that country.

Somehow the same excuses for why the Iraqi government and even US military can't defeat the insurgencies or disarm ethnic militias in Iraq don't apply to Lebanon which in the mind of those supporting Israel's collective punishment should've been able to do a much better job.

 

Wow. You were able to take time out from your MacBeth/Batman Jones fetish to reply to me? I'm so honored.

 

Yeah, and it is somewhat disconcerting that if you don't immediately fall into the 'Israel is a bunch of war criminals' faction you are suddenly part of the Zionist-Neocon Cabal. How many times have we had someone write 'x is a war crime' only for the facts to come out and it not be the case, and then despite the factual correction the same accusations continue unabated?

 

That might be more true if Lebanon had appealed for help disarming Hezbollah, and if the Lebanese government was not complicit in Hezbollah's attack on Israel.

 

International appeal? That would risk a full-blown civil war. If Israel can't defeat Hezbollah, do you think the international force will have success? As much damage Israel has caused, this is still nothing compared to the long term reprecussions of a civil war with the Hezbollah. IMO the only way to disarm Hezbollah is through negotiations and actively integrate them into government.

 

Your argument that because Nasrallah had informed the Lebanese governement that they were planning on kidnapping Israeli soldiers as them being complicit is dependent on the issue of whether Lebanon could do anything about it. In regard to Lebanon asking for help you're ignoring the complexities and difficulties in regard to the nature of Hezbollah. Its an unfortunate anology but somewhat apt. The Lebanese government is in many ways like an abused housewife who is both cowed by and dependent on her husband. You act as though it is an easy matter for the government of Lebanon to ask for international help to disarm Hezbollah when that would lead to another civil war destroying the fragile progress towards building a stable society. As we see with Iraq even bringing in a foreign power is no guarentee of disarming a powerful insurgency. If anything it might lead to further chaos.

 

We are in accord. It drives me crazy as well. People expect miracles everyday, when it serves their agenda, then they say, "what do you want, miracles??" ... when it does not.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

I put these together because they are along the same lines. I am not ignoring anything or suggesting that any of this is 'easy.' But your alternative would leave Israel no recourse but to stand by whenever Hezbollah attacks. That is not reasonable either. I really dislike most analogies because they are fairly imprecise and quickly detract the discussion, but in your example while difficult to do, a woman is better off getting outside help if she is in an undesirable situation than just sitting there in a neverending circle of dispair. Better that she call the police or flee to a shelter than continue to be abused. You advocate she stays in the abusive relationship and continues to say 'please don't beat me' ad infinium. I don't find that to be a convincing argument.

Further, I find it somewhat distressing that some of the same people who always rail against a false dichotomy of choices now chose to claim Lebanon had no choices. They could have, to start with, told Nasrallah no. They could have asked for outside help to disarm Hezbollah. They could have informed Israel and made it explicit that they were not culpable in Hezbollah's actions. They could have moved the Lebanese Army onto the border as a buffer. None of these choices would have been 'easy,' but let us not pretend they didn't have any choices.

 

There certainly is a recourse. Israel could have negotiated with Hezbollah and perform an exchange of prisoners.

 

btw... I respect your post and I share the concern you have for the Israeli public as well.

 

The gocerment in lebbanon could" disarm' Hezbollah even if it wanted to. hezbollah posses some of the most hightech weapons in the Region. iran has armed hezbollah to the teeth to control the goverment in lebbanon through hezbollah.

 

Could not i meant. hezbbollah is far too powerfull for the goverment there. BTW, hezbollah is a very clever political organisation also. over the years, they have successfully went on a mission to win over the minorities even in the christian areas, by building hospital, churches and so on to buy there vote along with the shias. just look at the Parliment, hezbollah currently holds alot of seats thee.

 

The problem with this is twofold: (a) you are rewarding Hezbollah for their attack by giving them what they want and (b) you are encouraging them to attack again and again. It is clear from Nasrallah's interview that this is what he expected to happen. I just don't think it is reasonable to expect Israel to do this over and over again - which is why I understand Israel saying 'enough - it is time to seek a more permanent solution.' It would be similar to suggest that when Al Queda blew up the WTC we should have withdrawn from the Middle East so they wouldn't attack us again. I don't think you can allow these groups to dictate events in that manner.

I appreciate that and as I in my response to thacabbage in the other thread I am not without concern for the Lebanese people caught in the middle of this.

So do you apply this equally to Iraq?

 

Just do exactly what the terrorists want? Of course, it's so simple I can't believe no one has thought of it before. That would surely discourage future acts of terrorism as well.

Iraq's government certainly did not invite the help of a foreign power in removing a terrorist organization that had taken up residence. More like the colonists getting the French to help them kick out the English in the Revolutionary War. The majority of the people would be for it. In fact, they could have made great stride diplomatically if they had petitioned Israel for aid in getting rid of Hizballah. Working on such a joint venture would have brought the countries closer together, instead of the situation they have now that is driving a wedge between them.

 

It might sound silly, but it might be effective. I don't know. There was a time in the early 90's when the world had been having a rash of kidnappings for ransome for about 25 years.

Japan's official policy was to always give in to ransome demands. They always got their hostages back, and despite what some might think they didn't become bigger targets for those kinds of kidnappings.

That doesn't mean that I agree with that policy or that is what should have been done in this case. But it isn't something to be dismissed without consideration at least.