Pops, I don't think anybody,even the Rockets , have high expectations that Collier can get a lot of minutes out of his bad leg. The only reports I've heard is that his rehab is not going well. Could he even pass a sign and trade physical?
YES!!!!! A Popeye post!!! Now once I get over all my excitement, I am going to actually read what I posted. Maybe even twice.
As unlikely as it is, a Mo Taylor for Lafrentz swap wouldn't be that bad for either team, except that Denver has Mcdyess at PF. If that happened, KT and Griffin would both get plenty of time at PF, while Lafrentz filled our void at C. I highly doubt the Rockets would S&T Mo for Raef, but it would work out nicely. Another deal that wouldn't be bad is Shandon for Willis. Like Pops said, it might take a 3rd party to get it done, and would probably involve more players, but giving up basically Shandon for Willis would be nice.
Paraphrasing CD on several occasions with the latest as of this morning ... said that Jason was pulled not because his rehab was going poorly, but that the Rocky Mountain was more aggressive play than they wanted him to be involved in. He did have some stress discomfort with it, but that is normal for an excercised rehab. I do think that he is attempting to come play a little harder than he should. It is also typical for Big Guys to rehab legs very poorly. I just don't see his condition as one of alarm, merely precautionary. But to the point .... by accepting (he is not a S&T by the way, it is a straight trade) Collier means the new team is either investing in the future of Jason's game, which is not eons away (and he will be able to contribute somewhere this year(most likely here)), but also the accepting team will be wanting the unguaranteed aspect of his contract. In particular when you are trading off .... Wah Wah for Collier, you are exchanging $6M a year until 2007, for a Rookie contract. The gained trade exception of $4-5 Million is pretty attractive to a team like Denver. Then add some comparable stuff, like Walt, or Shandon, AND picks ..... now you have at least some interest from Denver in meeting some of our requests for talking about LaFrentz. I am not saying that is all it will take, but unloading someone you want to unload, gaining a trade exception, gaining pick(s), picking up a veteran player or two .... well it is not as easy as some are saying, but it also not as far fetched as some are making it.
Did anyone besides me have the NBA package on the sat? I like Lafrentz, I also like Jackson. If anyone watched the games, Jackson is a decent low-post defender like Thorpe was. Raef helps weakside and blocks shots. Which is more important? I couldn't tell because the Heat had one of the better defenses without a shot blocker. Utah had a good defense with Olden in the middle. What shot blocker did Phoenix and Sacremento have and they were in the tops defensively? Whats the point? The point is, shot blocking just like steals doesn't equate to good defense. Team defense is more important than individual defense. Maybe now since Hakeem is gone, Rudy can now teach the players the proper way to play D. That starts with sending player baseline not to the middle of your D. Team D is the key. So who I would rather have, Jackson or Raef? It wouldn't matter to me because both would upgrade our 2 weakest areas, rebounding and low post presence.
An old episode of NBA jam session from last yr on nba.com tv right now....they are showing all blocks as opposed to the usual dunks.......the just showed #45 Raef LaFrentz blocking both Iverson and KG - at the rim! I would say his defensive is at least adequate. With regard to having the bulk to stop Shaq.....who does?
leebigez: Actually, the stats don't bear you out. Shotblocking has a much stronger correllation with winning than do steals. Of the 16 playoff teams, 14 of them blocked more shots than their opponents. And one of those teams was Philly with Allen "I'm short and shoot all the time" Iverson. The other team was Miami, which had a first round exit. Of the same 16 teams, 10 of them had more steals than their opponents. Notable teams that did not: the Lakers, San Antonio, Utah, and Dallas. 4 of the top 5 teams in the West. It seems that shotblocking is very important to success. Steals, not at all, as you point out. The two shouldn't be compared.
Glad to see the Rockets have their sights set on LaFrentz, that would be an GREAT pick-up! I don't think LaFrentz at center banging will not be as big as an issue since the Rockets are a team that is quick enough to get help defense and double teams down in the post to help out the center. Is it possible that if the Rockets DO manage to get LaFrentz, that they might get Jelani McCoy as a back-up big man?
Count me in haven! Raef's our man indeed! Sounds like he is exactly the kind of player that fits our rudy ball style... let's hope we can somehow ship cato outta here and get LaFrentz... and i wouldnt mind having Brad Miller to back him up too!
Great post pops- Still, it does seem as if you're "marketing" Collier a little more than giving an accurate description of his true skills. I do remember a few games last year where Collier stepped up his play. But, at best, he seems to be a Todd Macollough with a better shot...at worst, which seems just as likely to me, he rides the bench for the rest of his career and sees only a game or two of playing time per year. He is big, but can he bang? Ive seen him pushed around a number of times by smaller people. His hands still arent great, he is very slow and for a man his size, he doesnt get many blocks or rebounds. Still, you would know mroe than I would.
here are my barrage of replies gater: good points, but the fact still remains that unless raef suddenly wants to be a rocket no matter what, your chances of him are slim due to the fact that any trade that could be done salary-wise, is no where near enough to force denver to make such a trade. again if raef wants to be a rocket, then you have a point. but this is not the case. richrocket: ok lets say they dont like each other (raef and issel). does this IN ANY WAY make a KT/SA/collier for raef deal a good one or even possible? no it does not. (see baquis post for example) thanos: what makes you think i value raef so highly? because i turned down the terrible offers here? no i value him fairly and offers on this board are UNFAIR. pippendagimp: that could work...a 3rd team. you guys send SA/KT/collier/whoever to that team (a team that could actually use them), we send you raef and that other team maybe sends us someone we can use. any ideas? oeilpere: issel would never chose jackson over raef and we could NEVER EVER trade raef and willis. this is a concept some rocket fans ignore - looking at other teams situations. FOR EXAMPLE (purely to emphasize my point) ; we could NOT trade raef and willis for ray allen (if it matched salary wise). we would not win 25 gams with mcdyess up front and i guess mcclintock starting at center (no bench). obviously that trade would rule for us talent wise, yet we cannot do it. diehardrocket: we would not trade raef for mo taylor. we would NOT trade willis for SA.
I'm thinking any deal for Lafrentz would require a 3rd party, and/or a a "domino" trade to make a deal work. Right now, our rosters are not very compatible. I thought the best chance was through a 3 way S/T for Dream. Hypothetically, through with Indiana getting Dream, giving up Harrington (and McKey, to clear a lot of salary), Denver getting Harrington, picks and pick your Rocket (KT, Walt, Collier, SA etc.) and Raef to us, possibly TAW as well as a deal-breaker. A similar thought would be a more complicated 4-way, with Mason to Indiana, Shandon to Miami, Raef to Houston, and Harrington to Denver. Basing off opie's posts, one possible 3 way involving centers that would make some logical sense would be Houston ending up with Raef, Denver ending up with Miller, and Cato landing in Chicago. Of course, other parts would have to be involved, but Denver would get a "legit" center, who they've chased for 2 years now, Cato has the Floyd connection, and Raef is Raef. Obviously, it couldn't be quite that simple, but throw in picks (we still have the freeze on Chicago's picks for a LONG time), extra pieces, and a bad contract or two (like TAW), and that'd seem semi-workable. As for the impact of Raef's D, the biggest impact wouldn't be his man D- but having Griffin AND Raef swatting shots allows Steve and Cuttino to gamble more, and not look so bad - creating more turnovers.
NugsFan, your ferverent responses remind me earily of posters on this board remonstrating Raptor fans by saying that 'we' would never give up Hakeem for anything but Keyon Clark. You are not Issel. His the history of his judgement is spotty at best. Hopefully for you, the Nuggets will sign someone to be GM and actualy give them some real power. But, until then I would suggest that you remain hesitant to speak for Issel. Also, keep in mind that this is a Rockets forum. Try not to get so upset when people loose touch with reality. It won't hurt to let us dream. off topic I was watching ESPN Classic last night and they had on the highest scoring game in NBA history from '83 between the Nuggets and the Pistons. Man, Dan Issel looked old. He reminded me of my 60 year old father, running down the court tripping over his own shoe laces and jacking up crappy looking jumpers from 20+ feet (of course the short shorts didn't help with the coolness factor). How in the hell did he manage to score 20+ points that year? In fact I think he actualy looks younger now than he did then...
Here Nugzfan. Would you consider this trade? Houston sends KT/Cato/Shandon(S&T)/Drew obligation to Chicago & a future #1 pick to Denver. Chicago sends Miller/Mercer to Denver. Denver sends LaFrentz/Abdul-Wahad/Willis to Houston. We could send Walt instead of Shandon. The trade still works, but I would think that Chicago would rather have Shandon.
How does Shandon fit into Chicago's works? They seem to be getting explosive offensive players who are athletic and hungry. To this day, I dont remember Anderson being an offensive threat for more than 20 games a season.
we cannot trade raef for harrington. raef for miller is a little better i suppose but miller isnt very good (legit center weve chased? lol, yeah miller is our guy ) and im sure a better offer (center for center) could be invented or like you said, throw in wahad or picks.
otto; of course im not issel. but how in the hell does that make an anderson/thomas/etc deal for raef possible? i could understand if we were getting screwed BUT AT LEAST wed get a guy we could use and maybe raef demanded to leave. but so far theyve only talked about extensions and issel is a big fan of raefs (he always saw a younger version of himself...big reason why he took him in the draft). but hell, keep on dreamin. just ignore my posts then. i wish i could have seen that game. im not old enough to ever see it (wasnt even a nuggets fan back then...i was closer to being a piston fan anyways) and i dont have espn classic hopefully ill see it sometime.
absolutely NOT. it leaves us with dice/miller up front (why do you guys want willis as well?) and your sending mercer back to denver. lemme repeat...MERCER BACK TO DENVER? ron mercer? to denver? are you serious?
