Disowning Conservative Politics, Evangelical Pastor Rattles Flock

This is fun, (addicting but fun)- posting is entertainment

real stuff happens when we log off and return to life

 

Max, I wish more folks like you would bother to vote. Rick Perry, a freakin' hypocrite and corrupt politician if there ever was one, is fixing to get re-elected governor of our fair, but voting lazy, state in November, because people just don't pay attention to politics.

Next to family and, for folks like you, Max, religion, there are few things more important in the United States than politics, political discourse, and elections. It is at the foundation of this country's existence, yet people get more and more disinterested, and make more excuses not to get involved, instead of dipping their toe into the political process. One needs only to look at this country and it's direction, or lack of a direction, in it's fiscal, domestic, and foreign policy to see just how short-sighted, and worse, American political apathy is.

I almost started a thread about this article, and I almost never start threads, because it really made me excited to see a gentleman have the courage to stand up against the madness that has gripped this country, and obscured religion under a cloud of political fog. Now, I freely admit to being agnostic, but I'm around friends and family who are not, and I know how important this topic is, and how huge a step it was for this evangelical pastor to take... to publicly denounce the mixture and use of religion in this country for political purposes. I applaud the man, and how I hope we see more courageous men and women of good faith and religion take the same path.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

i hate labels like this...and i tend to reject them because i've been to churches that are labelled as "emerging", and no church can be pinned down like that. the church i go to now certainly has elements typically associated with the "emerging church" movement. but there is a very deep sense of spirituality. also, ecclesia, the "king" of houston's emerging churches, is perhaps the place where i've seen the deepest sense of the sacred -- there is nothing "surface" level about it, though it does huge cultural hooks (particularly, art) to attract people from its surrounding Montrose community. though i don't see that as very different from a church opening a school or a day care to "meet people where they are" in the suburbs.

here's why i'm encouraged by the "emerging" church movement. because i've seen people come to christ because of it. met a man who said that a year prior to going to ecclesia, he was down the street downing ecstasy chased with bacardi...and that night, in his words, "he was downing the body of christ chased with his blood in communion." wow. for him this was utterly life-changing. in that sense, these churches are no different than others...but they just seem to be more purposeful than the denominational country clubs. (not to be taken as if every denonminational church is so inwardly focused as to miss the bigger picture, because there are some tremendous churches affiliated with different denominations out there!) but i hang with friends who were particularly drawn to Christ through people like Rob Bell and Chris Seay because it was much more "real" to them than it had ever been presented before. when stained glass windows were met with oohs and aahs. when art was presented in that form, then those templates were effective. unfortunately, they're not anymore. we find new ways to tell this story...new ways to reach people. you don't cheapen the Gospel...you glorify it. you find a God who isn't just redeeming Christian culture but is redeeming all of creation...that there is a false division between secular and sacred as God is working in all of it.

click on the link in my sig, rhester. hit play on the video. it's about 11 minutes long.

deckard -- you're very, very kind! thank you!

 

I see what you're saying. Too many have used Christ's name for personal gain. Worse, some have bastardized the Word for the same reason, both left and right. What I struggle with is when Christ said to make disciples of all nations. How do we do that. I think civic participation is integral in that commission.

 

ridiculous

 

Maybe by setting such an example of peace and faith that others feel compelled to look into it. By making sure that people who want to understand have the ability to find information. By showing Christianity in the way it is experienced by many people - a sense of sanctuary in the belief that there is meaning in suffering.

I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't say anything about political platforms. And it's important to remember the Jesus chose not to write anything down. That could mean many things...

The way Christianity functions on the political stage, it just appears to me as the desperate herding together of fearful people, with the message being important primarily in the way it makes it easier for people to herd. People who are so afraid of the world that they seek to impose their will, as a demographic but never as individuals, on everyone who they see as part of it.

 

Wow. If you substitute Hitler with Bush, your post still makes sense!!!

 

Well, they are both intimidated by The Lobby. We wants to take a chance to go against The Lobby when It can pour millions to your shore up your opponent's rating and run smear campaigns on you?

 

Max, I understand how labels and generalizations are dangerous. It was another bad move on my part to use them. I want you to know that I have many pastor friends who are self proclaimed parts of the Mega church and Emerging church movements. I have been around these churches and worked with their pastors for about 10 years. Primarily those associated with Rick Warren, Bill Hybell, Tommy Barnett, Joel Osteen. If you would like to email me I would share with you the ones I have worked with personally there are 6 churches I am thinking of in the area.

I certainly do not have any problem with the mission and the compassion of Mega Churches. My friends and I discuss these very issues and they don't condemn me for disagreeing on points and I don't condemn them for their views either. I have labelled several similar things in their ministries that I am cautious of. The 'label' I give them may come from a different reason that you may not be aware of especially since I am not familiar with either Rob Bell or Chris Seay. The 'label' of Mega and Emerging came self proclaimed by these pastors in private and it came because they all went to other pastors to learn techniques of church growth and ministry. I certainly have close relationships still with these pastors. At least they still ask me to fellowship with them and I ask them also, some come to speak in our church.

What I have found for my own life is that there are several similarities in each of these churches I am familiar with. Some are awesome- compassion and desire to reach out to the unchurched; a humble view of others; desire to love and accept people where they are; lack of pretense and self righteousness; a Christ centered message. I find these things awesome and wonderful.

Let me share with you that our church is not much different except in a few areas. We would be considered a small group in a Mega church. Out of 5 converts in our church this year we have 4 crack heads and one cocaine abusing exotic dancer. Our outreach Pastor was a crack head 14 months ago. It is awesome when someone encounters Jesus.
There are others in our church that have started attending this year that are still coming to understand their faith- one man just out of prison (felony theft from a church), an alcoholic and two unsaved husbands of women who attend. Our church is not seeker friendly in the least. We meet in a run down building that leaks water all over the floor when it rains and the A/C works about half the time. The pastor is not a good speaker and everyone has flaws. What God has put on our hearts to do is pray earnestly, study God's word and go out into the highways and hedges and preach the gospel. We have people going out into the community on a weekly basis sharing the Good News. We share with our families and friends. We believe every person has an eternal soul valueable to God and we don't like walking past people who could die today and miss heaven. That seems unloving and uncompassionate to us. These ex-crack heads come and pray til late at night for others and then they go tell others what Jesus has done for them.

We have a simple mission- love God with all of our hearts, love the lost, love one another. That keeps our focus to be on our knees in prayer, into the Word, out to the streets and neighborhoods and helping one another.

In these other churches I have mentioned I have spent time as a guest teacher and I have spent time with the members and even after ten years I have generalized this- there is a lack of prayer and burden for the non-Christian, there is a lack of study of God's Word- most I have talked to have been Christians for over 5 yrs. and never read completely through the Bible and there is a lack of evangelism and good works. Few are sharing there faith and fewer are even going to their neighbors to meet pratical needs. Maybe these are not as important as I view them - I am fine with that, I don't want to judge another man's servant - so I generalize what I differ with these other churches. And I don't see these things as legalistic requirements of Christians- I have consistently over 26 yrs of ministry seen these as the normal fruits of the Spirit and the dynamic life of Christ in the believer. I never have to tell new Christians to pray, read the Bible, obey the Bible and evangelize- they do it and we just teach them, pray for them, love them and help them grow strong.

I have been grateful to see people from diverse walks of life in large numbers worshipping in church and renewing their spiritual life. I am grateful for the large growth in these churches but I have found these responses from members I visit with in my small samplings- I ask them about repentance and they tell me no one has ever discussed this. I asked them if they are witnesses for Christ at work or in their family or neighborhood and they say yes, but when I ask them how many non Christians they have witnessed their faith and testimony to they usually say none or few. I ask them if they attend a regular prayer meeting and they say no. I am amazed at all God is able to do without praying Christians. God has led us on a different track and that doesn't make it right or better. Maybe I am overly concerned with the long term fruit of different church movements.

I am wrong to generalize this and I have a very small sample in my own life to go by, but mostly as I talk to pastors and bring these things up the answer I often receive is just look at the numbers. The pastor of the largest church in our County is a very close friend of mine. He told me the first thing he gives each of his new members is a book written by a Mormon explaining how to live life successfully. I would never do this (to each his own) He learned these methods from a Mega church mentor. It might be good for him and certainly is none of my business so we remain friends.

I am all for the Emerging church doing away with self righteous and self centered haughtiness and reaching out to a hurting community. I trust that the method does not swallow the message and the same Jesus who said come unto me all who are weary will also be the same Jesus that said if any man come after me let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me, for whosoever shall save his life shall lose it, but whosoever shall lose his life for me and the gospel shall find it.

I personally should not generalize something I have such limited experience with. I am sure I would not have any problem with the compassion and grace your church is extending to the community; I feel I would be right at home in your church. -We need about 10 more churches like this in the Montrose area. Our church is located in the 'Montrose' area of our County and it is a good place to be.

My own views are just that, and my friends who pastor Mega-churches can always point to our 80 members and say the results certainly justify the means. I have not fully embraced the Mega Church and I am still learning about what is called the Emerging Church.

I just personally believe that we are to make disciples who live lives of prayer, obedience to God, repentance, faith, love, evangelism- as Jesus said make disciples teaching them to observe all I have commanded.

The reason I posted and the thing I reacted to in the article was the statement- 'we need to stop moralizing sexual issues'
That can mean alot of different things I suppose, but if you mean we should accept immorality as a part of humanity and therefore a part of Christ's body the church I start choking, because I have had pastors tell me that they don't want to let anyone think they are 'sinning'

I love to study great preachers- Whitefield, Edwards, Wesley, Finney, Spurgeon, Moody, Wilkerson, Graham, Ravenhill and one thing they have in common was a completely different approach than the one described to me by these movements. I have studied the great missionaries Taylor, Judson, Studd, Brainerd, Goforth etc and the same can be said.

As one who will give account for everything I do as a pastor I must stay true to what God has given me to do and trust Him to direct me. In my generalizations based upon my own experience I have decided not to join in with the program as I have been encouraged to do by some of my friends.

I apologize for the critical tone of my post. I am for all who preach Jesus Christ. When Jesus is preached it is awesome to me.

BTW- I really can't stand mixing politics and Jesus- especially the generalization of a religious right.

Sincerely, a discouraged Astro fan and an overly optimistic Rocket fan.