If all the illegal Immagrants become 'guest workers' 1. Will the Minimum Wage laws apply to them? The main reason we like illegal workers is that they are cheap. Once they are guest workers. . .will they have all the rights and priviledges of American workers? meaning. . .The main reason they don't speak on the discriminatory payment structure is because to the threat of getting caught and sent back. Once that threat has been removed. . is it reasonable to beleive that will still accept the discriminatory practice? Lower wages etc. Will they have the right to sue companies for discrimination? If so . . Will the advantages of poor labor be lost in this shuffle? While I hear all the Capitalist screaming that we should let supply and demand etc should rule this situation . . competition and survival of the fittest etc That being the case that would mean these laborers would seek to maximize their profits/wages as well If they are going to be paid as much or equal to Americans . .. what is the point of the guest worker again .. . . People like to say . .they do jobs americans won't do that is not true they are jobs Americans won't do FOR THAT PRICE . . big difference if the price goes up . . . Americans would do those jobs .. . if americans would do the jobs. . are recomfortable giving them to guest workers. . I mean what would be the advantage of using guest workers over Americans I'm trying to understand this logic Rocket River
The title is misleading. It should read Xenophobic Guest Worker Rant. I don't think you are actually asking any sort of real question.
The whole "you disagree with me: therefore, you're a hate monger" argument is really tired. Surely, you have something more constructive to add. If not, why bother?
THAT PRICE doesn't always mean less than minimum wage though. They might be jobs that Americans won't do for under $10 an hour. So if someone pays illegal immigrants or guest workers $8 an hour they are still making more than the minimum wage and the company is still paying less. I hope they will be allowed to sue for discrimination, and are guaranteed minimum wage.
I know that In fact I hear Construction workers paid 15 and up however . . . their American counter parts were getting 18 and up. . . . Will the new GWP [Guest Worker Program] will these workers get the 18 that their American Counter parts will get? It really is getting tired. . . . but they want this so bad that anyone looking at the long term effects or different effects than those given . .. well they just hateful I think my questions are Legit Rocket River Rocket River
The long-term effect - if everyone legalizes (which won't happen) - would likely be that everyone would get paid the same rate somewhere in between the legal and illegal rate now (in your example, $16 or $17). The result would be US workers getting a pay drop, former-illegal immigrants getting a pay raise. At the same time, the incentive to higher immigrants would decrease, so more US workers would be employed and less immigrants would be employed. If an American construction company has to pay the same to someone who speaks English and someone who doesn't, they likely will prefer to higher the former. On the other hand, immigrants are less likely to fight corruption or bad treatment, so companies that want to abuse their workers may tend towards immigrants. But overall, it would likely standardize the market. The reality, however, is that no one knows how many people would bother with the guest worker process. There would likely be a lot of fear that this "registers" them and the US might change it laws down the road and deport them all. There are also fees associated with the guest worker / citizenship process which many can't afford. In addition, those that work on a cash-basis (day laborers, for example), would now have to pay taxes, meaning their pay could actually drop and it may be smarter to simply stay illegal. Realistically, there are too many opposing factors in play to have a real good idea how the whole thing would play out.
This sounds accurate as well I think this thing will not work without stronger laws against Employing illegals. Esp since they have this alternative Everything is based on people's personal economies if you money will decrease if you become legal then why become legal? Rocket River
They probably will have the minimum wage floor but as FB pointed out many illegals work for higher than min. wage already. The threat of getting caught and sent back might be removed but under a guest worker program if they lose their job they will get sent back too. Its not the illegality that necessarily makes immigrant labor cheaper its the disparity in wealth of here vs. their respective countries. A programmer from India on an H1-B visa is here legally but on average is paid less than an American programmer because they are willing to work for less. An Indian programmer might earn $40K for a year here while an American might $70K. That $50K though goes much farther in Bangalore than it will in San Jose. Yes they will be entitled to certain basic protections regarding gender and ethnic discrimination but salaries are still much more set by the market than by the law. For instance you could have two American citizens doing the same job, one working at company A and the other at company B and have the one working at company A getting more than the one at company B. You make it sound as though regulation and the fear of lawsuits determine salaries. While those have a big impact its not the whole case and market forces still play the biggest role. Because they aren't necessarily seeking equality with Americans but superiority to the wage rates in their home countries. If what you say was the case there wouldn't be the H1-B visa which already brings in foreign high tech workers who work, willingly, at a lower rate to their American counterparts. You're missing basic economics here. Yes that's true Americans will do any job for the right price. If dishwashing pays $100K a year yo will see a lot of people wanting to become dishwashers. The problem is that you can't just artificially raise the price of labor and just expect things to go humming along since that becomes a huge inflationary pressure. Even leaving out immigrants in the US people are already paid different rates for often the same job and there are regional disparities regarding wage rates. A dishwasher working in Marin County, CA is going to earn more than a dishwasher working in Beubridge, LA because the cost of living is different. American companies relocate jobs internally in the US all the time to find the best cost / benefit advantage. You're creating a simplistic picture that somehow the only thing that keeps labor cheap is illegal aliens and they only do so because they're illegal. That's a factor but not a big factor. Labor prices vary for a lot of reasons even in the US among citizens. US citizens aren't all being paid the same and there no reason to expect that legalized immigrants would either.
There is a model already which is the H1-B visa program. You are correct that a much larger guest worker program would have a deflationary impact on salaries in all sorts of fields since now US workers would compete openly with guest workers. Of course this competition is already going on just not openly. With legal or illegal workers as long as there is a fluid labor market who gets hired will depend on not only costs but also what sort of relative advantages they can bring. Looking at the H1-B program its not like US programmers have been wiped out they just have to compete.
But The H1-B program doesn't account for the unique circumstances of Mexican migrant workers - primarily, that they are often very poor, and there is a lot of fear / mistrust of the US government based on the rhetoric that's coming out of Washington. So it remains to be seen how many would actually go through the legalization process, and if a substantial majority don't, then the net result is vastly different than if the majority do.
With programmers, you're also talking about skilled labor, where there is much more individualization of the market. Two programmers, based on experience and background, can easily be paid vastly different amounts. With unskilled labor, that's much less a factor - a construction worker or strawberry picker, for the most part, is a construction worker or strawberry picker, as far as pay is concerned. There aren't really major differences in two strawberry pickers. So the wage rate will be much flatter in general.
On a slightly different but related subject, American CEOs' ridiculously generous compensations should be argued against by the same reasoning. Top executives in large corporations here in this country receive far more than the values they have actually created. In 2005, for instance, the top dogs received 262 times the average worker's annual pay. I am not necessarily saying that you don't recognize this travesty, but it is most likely ignored by the people who cry foul over lowly laborers getting higher pays.
Exactly I have been getting told for weeks that if we hired americans to do this or to do that . .. my strawberries would immediately be 20$ a LB or some maddness [dunno where those type of hyperbole come from] But If they will be making minimum raise then we can expect a bump in strawberry prices Hiring americans vs Illegals in various businesses is not as simple as . .the price is the same . . hire the one with the better English the chances that one or the other will Unionize is also an issue Illegals are less likely to Unionize . . in construction esp in Cali that is huge. The ability to go around the union will effectly destroy the employee's powers and protections Rocket River
I will agree they're not the same but there still are regional and other local conditions that affect the wages of both groups, programmers and construction workers. I don't know enough about fruit pickers but I can tell you construction workers do have a range of pay scales depending on trade and knowledge and depending on how hot the construction market is you can have vastly different pay scales for construction.
