He also was a much less efficient offensive player, and not nearly as good a defensive player. A more comprehensive look at the stats, and you find that Battier was actually a better player. For instance, using Individual Win-Loss record (from basketball-reference.com): Code: [COLOR=Navy] PW PL PW%[/COLOR] Villanueva 3.9 6.4 37.6% Battier 9.0 1.3 87.3% per 2500 minutes: [COLOR=Navy]PW PL PW%[/COLOR] Villanueva 4.1 6.8 37.6% Battier 7.9 1.1 87.3% And by a very different method, 82games's Roland Ratings, Battier was +3.2 last year, while Villanueva was only +0.2. A superficial look at the numbers might make Battier appear to not be a very good player. But the more information you collect and the more context that is considered, Battier starts to look better and better. The reason is that he things he does so many things well (highly efficient, low mistakes, does things on defense that simply aren't recorded on a box score) that don't jump out on a score sheet.
Well put....history has proven that teams with chemistry not star power win championships. Look at the lakers of a couple years back. We have two superstars on the team, yao and tmac, we don't need a 3rd. What we need is a competent and consistent player who can chip in his fair share and make shots when the other two stars are struggling. Adding Gay to this lineup would've helped this team's progress, however it is too much of a risk to have the possibility of Gay struggling. Five years down the road (which is the benchmark for judging the bust factor), Gay might be the better player, but Battier right now is the better player. And "right now" is when we need to win. The thing that I am angry about is why did the rockets front office need to package in swift with this deal. Gay for Battier is an even trade...why was swift even involved is the question. Swift did have his troubles, but he did have his shining moments. He should've been given another season. On a side note, ESPN's Ric Bucher was very pleased with the trade of Gay for Battier, and I think he's the most reliable of all the ESPN NBA analysts.
Mike James in TOR with only 1 star = 20.3 ppg Jim Jackson mpg in Sac = 20.8 // mpg in HOU = 39.0 Jon Barry FGA in ATL = 77 in 275 min or 13.4 per 48 min // in HOU = 291 in 1,230 or 11.2 per 48 min Did you have a point?
Munco challenged me to name some players whose production went up playing in Houston, and I named 3. Jim Jackson in particular is someone who thrived in the system, and Battier is a better player than Jackson, at least at the stage in their careers in which they joined the Rockets. DD
Pretty simple. Rockets needed to give up a contract with a comparable salary to make the trade work. You can't just straight up trade a draft pick for an NBA player. At least I don't think you can. I'm also puzzled why the Rockets couldn't have gotten at least an extra draft pick out of it. And if Memphis was willing to take the salary of anyone to get Rudy Gay, I wish the Rockets would have given up Juwan Howard before Stromile Swift. Neither are very good, but Swift definitely has more value at this stage in his career.
I think Mike James is a legitimate answer. But not Jim Jackson. He produced more solely because he was playing more minutes. His PER actually was down from his previous year in Sacramento, for instance.
I don't know if we're more athletic than Miami, but it might be close. Did you see the NBA champions' crunchtime lineup? GP, DWade, Shaq, Walker, Haslem? Where's the tremendous athleticism there? Who was the more athletic team? Miami, or Dallas, the answer is Dallas, and by alot too. Speed/quickness can actually be offset by coaching and tempo, as shown by the Heat in the finals. Now if JVG can learn some zone defense for next season...
C'mon DaDa...Jackson played twice as many minutes in Houston as he did in SAC. If you are going to argue the point, at least stick to an apples to apples comparison like FGA's per 48 min. My suspicion is that you will find that the slower pace the Van Gundy Rox play at yields less FGA's per 48 in spite of "being open". That's what I was trying to get you to see about Redick. At the speed Van Gundy wants to play the game, there are not enough shots for Redick or Battier to signifcantly affect it as spot-up shooters.
You have to balance salary in making trades. And Stro's is the only thing we can trade for Battier. The thing is, They should get that 24th pick. But I think West is smarter.
Miami is not a team of super athletes or incredibly quick however, they are still much quicker/athletic than us. Their best player is one of the quickest players in the league. Haslem, Zo, Jwill, and Posey heck even Walker are still pretty quick and athletic.
Gater, you and I could not disagree more, it is not about FGA, it is about what the other team does to react. If they stay on Battier it opens it up for Yao and Tmac, if they double off of them, Battier gets a wide open look. Battier adds an effective option to this team, and is a solid starter to boot. If Gay turns into a monster, I will be whining with the rest of you guys, but if we win a championship with Battier, I won't care. I think we are closer to competing THIS year with Battier and that is all that matters to me. DD
You also completely spun the question. That's not an apples to apples comparison. JJ is going to put up better stats if he plays twice as many minutes.
I'll give you Haslem and Walker over Juwan. If you look back on my other post you will see that Zo plays 10 mins a game and only plays well 50% of the time. Jwill and Posey don't seem to be anything special, When they lift you for GP in crunch time, you're nothing special. I'd take Battier over Posey anytime. The main comparison here is that they have the quickest player in the league, we should look at Tmac vs. Dwade. I give an edge to Wade because he's proven to be simply unstoppable driving to the hoop, where Tmac will just pull up and shoot his unblockable jumper, Wade seems to do more. The one comparison you forgot to make was Shaq vs. Yao. Did you see Shaq in the playoffs? How many good games did he have? 2, 3? I mean he didn't even play well against Dampier, you've seen Yao Ming or Tim Duncan or Amare destroy Dallas enough times to realize that Dallas cannot guard big men. The Tmac Yao pick and roll play was unstoppable last year! Shaq is now too slow and unathletic to actually run the pick and roll. He's really slipped up. We can hope that the difference between Tmac and Wade can be made up by the difference between Yao and Shaq.
I dont know what makes me more sick to my stomach........rudy gay becoming a future really good player ....or juwan howard playing 30 plus minutes this year.........this team has so many holes to fill it is not even funny......we have no good power fowards....mutumbo has only a year left in his tank.. so no backup center soon..... and what happens if mcgrady back problems doesnt get better which is a mid to high percentage.....if mcgrady goes down .... this team is in big big trouble.........
Honestly, when Gay fell to us, i didn't really feel that happy. Don't really know why. I've watched a number of his games, and the guy did basically coast throughout his college career. Then when we traded gay for battier, I didn't hate it, or even dislike it. Pretty much indifferent. One aspect that I think Battier can help us is in terms of defensive flexibility. He's the kind of guy who will guard the best perimeter player. But he can also play the 4 when teams go small. Since the Mavs showed how tough they can be when they play 2 point guards, i think that makes getting MJ back very important. Imagine a lineup of James, luther, Tmac, Battier, Yao. Battier and Tmac can take turns on Dirk, cause we sure as hell know Juwan stands no chance. Some people are dwelling too much on the 10/5 stats. I have no doubt that Battier will come in and average 12-15 points on this team. And that's just from open looks on the perimeter. Anyone who expects him to create or drive with any regularity are being unrealistic. Battier should get plenty of shots, though I worry that Juwan and Rafer will be the guys that the defenses leave open. Once again, another reason to get James back. I think this could be a "wesley trade" type situation. I remember when that trade caused similar, though less intense, outrage around these parts. Everyone hated giving up JJ, and they threw around Wesley's crappy shooting numbers from previous seasons as justification for their anger. Then Wes fit perfectly, and everything clicked for us. Everyone shut up about it when we cruised to a 51 win season. It really wouldn't surprise me if that happened with this trade.
I'm sorry, this was simply not a very good trade. This was an EXCELLENT trade. The Rox just received a proven NBA player in Shane Battier for whom most coaches and high-IQ ballers have mad respect. He's a player that every single NBA team wishes they could have. And all Houston had to give up was a chump in Stromile Slow and an inknown commodity in RUGay. Very smart. 1. For those who may consider this a swap of 10/5 guys, I must first say that I sincerely respect your opinions, but you must truly look much deeper into statistics for a more accurate comparison. Battier's "10/5" label is a much more team-efficient "10/5." I encourage and implore you to take a look at the splits for both of these guys. The information will be quite eye-opening. Stro is complete trash. He's good for a dunk every once in a while when he's not battling a 2-3 week bout of pink eye or a severe bruising of his Vajeen. And I was all out in front with banners and tickertape screaming about his enormous potential when we signed him. http://www.82games.com/0506/0506HOU.HTM http://www.82games.com/0506/05HOU17D.HTM And Shane Battier is an absolute gem of a player. There are several teams in the league with superstar players that aren't nearly as effective and efficient as Shane. He's the Anti-Stro. http://www.82games.com/0506/0506MEM.HTM http://www.82games.com/0506/05MEM9D.HTM We are definitely making money on this deal. Thank you, Mr. Morey, for your poise and informed guidance in the face of potentially unpopular opinion. 2. Rudy Gay was not even in the Rockets top 5 prospects. Many of us (myself included) were elated that Gay was available for us at #8 if for no other reason than because he was hyped as being something great. Apparently he was not good enough to be in the Rockets predetermined top 5. So why should the team settle? Let's be real, a lot of the popular negative responses stem from our shock and lack of substantial knowledge of the whole situation. If we had all known Gay wasn't a top 5 guy, then most of us would be right on board. If anyone has the splits on Gay's career with UConn, that could be some interesting reading. How did the team perform with him on/off the court? What were his efficiency ratings? 3. When was the last time an NBA Championship contender actually had a high impact rookie on the team? The Rockets are looking to win the whole thing in 2007. Yao and Tracy are truly special balllers. Step back and really embrace this. These guys are really special. Anything short of a game 7 loss in an epic round 2 battle against a rival will be deemed a complete disappointment next year. And Rudy Gay does not have near the fire Super-Sub Sam had when he broke into the league. Overall guys, relax. Breathe. And love this trade. We're the bandits in this deal. If you can take a momentary break from swinging from The Logo's nuts, you'll realize his GM skills are not as stellar as ESPN would have you believe. He's effectively had 3 trips to the playoffs and a perfect 0-12 record. And as a player in the largest trade in NBA history this past summer, he helped build yet another championship team . . . in Miami. Houston's looking pretty good right now.
Yea i understand what battier brings to the rockets but boy did the rockets get rocked in this trade. They were soooooooo lucky to have gotten gay who was a potential #1 pick first of all. Also Gay is better than battier right from the start. The rockets need athleticism and scoring. They got just that in Rudy Gay. instead they pretty much lost all their athletism by giving away Gay AND Swift one of the msot athletic bigman in the league. This is why this deal makes no sense at all. WOW what a setback this is. Gay if not a star from day 1 will be a star very soon. Gay has the length and athleticism to be a great defensive player. He kind of reminds me of shawn marion he averaged nearly 2 steals and 2 blocks a game in college at sf u tell me thats not defense. To tell you the truth i dont know if i would do battier for jsut swift. i was hoping to see swift get the start at pf next season. This is extremely disapointing and i will remember this for a very long time.
I like Shane Battier, always have. And will support him on the team. For that i'm "with" you. However - It the sheer principle of the method used to obtain him. No one is against Battier the player. Players have only limited control in these decisions. Its all focused on how management was not maximizing what they had. They acted as though they were a player away from contention and the player they desired would be that man, which is debatable. They understated the worth of the players they traded away pure and simple... - Its more the rarity the Rockets have high lottery draft talent that comes their way. Rather than seeing a big picture with what they had they said "Oh, didnt get the guy we REALLY wanted, so we'll just give away this for a regular predictable guy who we wont have doubts about" I mean, couldnt they like most other teams just pick up the BEST ATHLETE available and work with that talent? Understand the sense of urgency to win now but dont just look to next week when you have something that years later can work out for you (Rashard Lewis...) - And they gave up ANOTHER guy along with it in Swift. Who BY HIMSELF packaged with future picks or something would have brought in a serviceable guy. If management was shrewd enough they'd know to hold onto the talent they do have and make additional moves around it. And if that talented player just rides pine the whole way he'd still probably have trade worth down the road. I know whats gonna happen. People will hear Battier speak and will be won over with his eloquance and intelligent manner. 2 dives after loose balls and they'll ease up on the deal....its still doesnt make it right but that's probably what will happen.
I just feel that we did not get raped in this trade but only time will tell. If Gay becomes an all-star caliber player, then obviously this trade would become terrible. Shane will help us win more games this yr and probably next yr as well. I believe Shane will win over fans like he said he will. He has a lot to prove just like Gay does. He will play with a chip on his shoulder.
http://www.basketballdraft.com/2006/writers/82games/01/05/grizzlies/ Check this out...here is what Sports Illustrated had to say about Shane Battier! Nothing but his defensive skills on the floor allowing the Grizzlies to be legit contenders.
